Are these guard rails?

[aegrotatio]

 I don't know the term for cutting these check rails, but they have a down-slope at each end.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Normally 'machining' would not be needed for guard rails or 'check rails', unless the guard rail is to be placed really close to the running rail so as to engage the back face of the wheel such as on sharp curves; or, unless the tie plates or joint bars for the running rails extend really far out towards where the guard rail should be installed at the established distance from the running rail's gage face, per the standard plan for that railroad/ transit line.  Even then, the most common modification is 'simply' to shear off some or all of the base on the side that will be facing the running rail, towards or as far as the guard rail's vertical web.  

I put 'simply' shear off in quotes because you just don't do that with a cutting torch.  Aside from that high heat drastically affecting the metallurgy of the rail steel and making it brittle and far more susceptible to breaking under impact, which is when it is needed to remain intact the most - when the rail cools down, it will then bend, and warp into a pretty sharp curl in both the horizontal and vertical planes towards the torched-off strip's former location, which is next to impossible to straighten out by merely spiking it down.  It really has to be sawed off - again, not something easily done in most shops or with most tools, in view of the length, weight, and odd shape of rails as compared to structural steel shapes.

- Paul North.

[aegrotatio]

 I saw these on the D train bridges coming back from Coney Island.  They look like the old trolley tracks re-purposed and machined to become check rails on the bridges.

[zardoz]

wabash1

What those are is rust collecters they collect the rust and other things that would normally attack the main line with those in place they collect the rust and allow the main line to be clean and shinny

Like the galvanizing they use on ocean vessels?

Maybe I should get one for my old car...

[videomaker]

tbdanny

Hi all,

Can anyone tell me what purpose the inner two rails in the photo below would be?

 

I apologise for the quality of the photo - it was taken from the window of a commuter train on a parallel track with a phone.  And yes, it is narrow gauge - the Queensland Rail network.

I suspect that these may be guard rails, but it is my understanding that guard rails are usually just inside the running rails, and I have seen rails like this at one point on the QR network - a particularly sharp curve coming out of Bowen Hills commuter station.  If these rails above aren't guard rails, then what are they?  I usually see them on bridges.  Any light on this matter would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

tbdanny

tbdanny,

These may be gaurd rails in Australia,but in America they are installed differently..They are installed about 6-8in. inside the travel rail and come to a point about 20 feet from each end of a bridge,they are not a very long taper to the point but rather short taper..They keep a train from knocking out a bridge in the event it derails bfore it reaches the abutment,keeping it somewhat upright...The timbers on a wooden tressel that are screwed into the ties on the ends also help in the same way,hopefully keeping cars from falling onto a street or into a ravine or river (whatever) I forget what they are called but they a have a name..I worked for the BN about 30 yrs ago and Ive forgotten all the terminology..My numbers here may be off as well so anyone correct me if you know...Mudchicken would probaly know more since he's the track man on here...

Hope this helps... 

[wabash1]

What those are is rust collecters they collect the rust and other things that would normally attack the main line with those in place they collect the rust and allow the main line to be clean and shinny

[steve14]

One of the best sources out there now for terminology explainations for railroad bridges is the AREMA Bridge Inspection Handbook. Go to arema.org for availability. You can also sign up for the seminar on this handbook.

In the interest of full disclosure, I will admit to being one of the instructors for these seminars, all as a volunteer effort.  

 

[tbdanny]

Sorry, let me clarify.

The timbers (and the dimensions are just an estimation) were on girder bridges, in the identical positions to the inner rails in the photo above.  They were also slightly curved inward on the ends.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

tbdanny

  Paul, these rails are fastened there, and they come to a point at the end. [snip]

With this additional information - I'd call them guard rails, then - hard to see what else they would be good for.  Prize goes to steve14 for being the first to correct identify them from the photo and info supplied, and runner-up to mudchicken for the analysis and comments. 

MC, what he's describing - 3'' x 6'' - I'd call 'spacer timbers'.  My PRR Standard Plans book shows 'Guard Timbers' as being 6'' high x 8'' wide - with the top surface of the timbers being 'dapped' or notched down an inch or so to provide additional 'locking' to hold them in place - although they also served as spacer timbers as you describe.

Modern open-deck timber bridges can have a whole lot of parts and 'jewelry' on them.  In addition to the basic bridge timbers = track ties across the girders or trestle stringers and the rails and OTM, etc. on top, here's some of what else goes on them:

- Hook bolts to hold the bridge timbers/ ties down onto the girders/ stringers;

- Spacer blocks of timber that fit down and between the bridge timbers, to keep them from moving together, which is usually toe-nailed into the timbers;

- Spacer bar on top, to keep the timbers from spreading.  It's usually from 5/8'' to 1'' thick x 3'' wide steel bar stock, with like 3/4'' holes every 3'' or so for a lag bolt of some kind to be driven into the timers.  That happens after all the timbers are installed and jacked together tightly, to hold in all together as a solid structure;

- Guard timber on the outside, usually 6'' x 8'', lag-bolted to the timbers at every 2nd or 3rd one;

- Guard rail on the inside, spiked to the timbers, usually without tie plates, but the the special pointed 'nose' at each end;

- Handrail and posts and thjeir screws;

- Grating or timber plank deck and its screws or spikes.

I'm sure there's more that I'm not remembering right now . . .   . . . besides tie pads under the plates to seal and protect the timbers, rail anchors if appropriate, etc., etc.

- Paul North.

[mudchicken]

I assume you are talking about open deck bridges with the timber out at the end of the ties. In that application, the guardrail application is secondary. Those timbers are to keep the open deck ties from skewing, walking and keep the ties properly spaced supporting the rail. (Caffeine hasn't hit yet this morning after a long night in the office, I can't think of the proper term for these timber spacer guardrails.)

Now being someplace where the company firewall does not block display of the image, Paul & Steve's comments ring true, especially the surfacing comments. (although if the G/R gets to close to the middle, the wheel tread falls off the tie/sleeper and the car risks tangling with the fixed bridge structure above top of rail.)

[tbdanny]

I've also seen these guard rails made out of wood on some bridges, although I think that may be being phased out.  Is it known to have guard rails made out of wood?  I mean solid stuff - about 3" x 6" lumber.

[tbdanny]

Paul_D_North_Jr

The photo is too blurry to see if there are any kind of fastenings on them or the running rails, which would make an assessment easier.

Paul, these rails are fastened there, and they come to a point at the end.

Paul_D_North_Jr

How often do you ride across this bridge ?  How long have you noticed these rails as being there ?

Given that I've only just moved house to this particular line of the QR network, I've only ridden this line 3-4 times.  However, I've noticed these on most QR bridges on 3 separate commuter lines, over a span of about 15-16 years (as long as I've been old enough to ride trains).

[steve14]

As MC said, if you took this shot in proximity to a bridge, they would be guard rails. If they are, then one reason for them to be so close together would be that it wil lallow the heads of the tampers to work the inside of the rails for surfacing work right up to the end of the bridge.

Most of the time, they are spaced further out which prevents the tamper heads from being able to get in to work. That contributes to low spots at bridge ends which starts the downward spiral of track and bridge conditions due to the increased pounding going on.

Most of the Class 1's have started setting the guard rails in like this to improve surfacing conditions at bridges.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Those 2 rusty rails are pretty far inside the running rails. to serve the principle function of keeping a derailed wheelset and car close to the running rail - but it would work to keep them in line with the track, and not letting them veer to the side.  Perhaps the Australians have different standards for that than here in the US ?

They're not shiny on top, so it's not likely that they're used as 3rd rails for another gauge of some kind, or maintenance vehicles, cars. or trams, etc.

The photo is too blurry to see if there are any kind of fastenings on them or the running rails, which would make an assessment easier.

They also appear to be a little shorter = smaller, lighter 'weight' than the running rails, which is also typical of guard rails.

But for that last aspect, I'd be willing to stick my neck out and speculate that they might be new rails to replace the running rails, which have been just temporarily laid or 'strung' there, pending obtaining enough 'track time' to cut them in and make the replacement.  Or perhaps the opposite - those are the old rails that were removed the last time the running rails on the bridge were replaced, and were simply left in place there, and no one has ever had the time or money to come back and pick them up.  Imagine that ! 

How often do you ride across this bridge ?  How long have you noticed these rails as being there ?

- Paul North.

[mudchicken]

I am assuming, because I cannot see the picture, that we are talking about a bridge guardrail.

The purpose is to keep a derailed wheelset on top of the ties and keep the railcar from falling off the bridge or getting into the bridge steel. (start those wheels digging into the ballast and it's all over)

If the guardrails come togther at a point (at the ends), that "tip" is made of part of a used #10 rigid frog machined out of rail pieces.

Like the old Santa Fe logo. (One of Chico's orphan's here, 1980-1996)

[henry6]

Probably.  Two rails inside of and parallel to the two main rails usually found on bridges or in tunnels.

[kolechovski]

AFAIK, guard rails.  You also see them at switches a lot.

[tbdanny]

Hi all,

Can anyone tell me what purpose the inner two rails in the photo below would be?

 

I apologise for the quality of the photo - it was taken from the window of a commuter train on a parallel track with a phone.  And yes, it is narrow gauge - the Queensland Rail network.

I suspect that these may be guard rails, but it is my understanding that guard rails are usually just inside the running rails, and I have seen rails like this at one point on the QR network - a particularly sharp curve coming out of Bowen Hills commuter station.  If these rails above aren't guard rails, then what are they?  I usually see them on bridges.  Any light on this matter would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

tbdanny