Obtuse, Doubled? Thoughts on Dec editorial

[Murphy Siding]

    I'll be the bad guy this time.  Time to move on to trains.

-Norris

[schlimm]

 I wonder if the outrage over deficit spending and burdening the next generation was as strong during the periods 1981-1993 and 2001-2008 as it appears to be now?

[garr]

henry6

When China or some Mid Eastern or European country holds the deeds to every business and factory, every stock certificate issued by every company?  When we wake up one morning sending our hard earned money to the capital of another country?  No one is denying the cost of doing something, but what is the cost if we do nothing?

Exactly how is this going to happen? As I have stated before, China, Japan, and European countries are buying USA GOVERNMENT debt. How does that translate into them owning our free enterprise corporations?

Where the problem comes in for our government is the day other countries decide our government treasuries are no longer a good investment.  

Jay

 

[schlimm]

petitnj

And Europe's system is subsidized and expensive to ride. The per mile cost of a train ticket is typically about 3 times the coach fare of Amtrak.

 

Correction:

"European" coach fare is not 3 times the coach fare on Amtrak.  They are, in fact, quite similar.

Example:

On the DB, Berlin to Munich on an ICE train (the German HSR), 365 miles, $190 = 52 cents/mile

Amtrak, Boston to Washington Acela service (comparable to ICE), 441 miles, $248 = 56 cents/mile

[henry6]

garr

 

As I have stated consistently, I like High Speed Rail, but show me how it can be done without adding to the debt load that we will be handing off to our children and grandchildren. Once that is shown, start the shovels.

If our governments would use this criteria for all non emergency projects/programs, we would all be better off in the long run.

Jay

Reactionary spendingis more costly than planned spending thus waiting for an emergency is too expensive.  Fix a broken rail or prevent a disease before there is a derailment or you contract a life threatening disease is far less costly and time consuming than waiting until there area a dozen hazardous cars strewn through a neighborhoood or you are beddridde for life. 

So, when will the emergency be in this country that we should do something about trains, health care, industry in general?  When China or some Mid Eastern or European country holds the deeds to every business and factory, every stock certificate issued by every company?  When we wake up one morning sending our hard earned money to the capital of another country?  No one is denying the cost of doing something, but what is the cost if we do nothing?

[henry6]

Bucyrus

henry6

Jay, I do think that is a little extreme and uncalled for.

 

Henry, I am not sure if you are talking about Jay’s criticism of Jim Wrinn, or Mr. Wrinn’s contention that those who howl at his civilized view of HSR do not get it.  Could you clarify?

 

Jay's criticism of Jim Wrinn.

[garr]

henry6

Jay, I do think that is a little extreme and uncalled for. ...Therefore there will be no consensus found here.  Am I wrong?  Are you wrong? It depends upon who you ask.  And each of those answers is part of a very long and endless thread.

 

henry6,

I think this has been a civilized thread.

Just saying the initial blow was the strongest. When someone tells me "I don't get it", i.e. Jim Wrinn's last sentence in the editorial "Let's hope that those howling high speed critics finally get it", just because I have a differing view I consider that an attack, at the very least condescending. As if their opinion is the only correct one.

Thus the title of this thread.The eight pages in this thread has proven both sides are obtuse.

As I have stated consistently, I like High Speed Rail, but show me how it can be done without adding to the debt load that we will be handing off to our children and grandchildren. Once that is shown, start the shovels.

If our governments would use this criteria for all non emergency projects/programs, we would all be better off in the long run. Just because we have operated in the red in the past does not mean we should continue doing it. Same as our personal finances, a reckoning day is coming, just on a larger scale and most seem to have the opinion that it is fine as long as it is later. Just give me this one--- now.

Jay

[Anonymous]

henry6

Jay, I do think that is a little extreme and uncalled for.

 

Henry, I am not sure if you are talking about Jay’s criticism of Jim Wrinn, or Mr. Wrinn’s contention that those who howl at his civilized view of HSR do not get it.  Could you clarify?

[blownout cylinder]

garr

greyhounds

Nobody's doing personal attacks (for the most part).  Just give her her head and see where she goes.  Sometimes that's the best option.

 

 

If there have been personal attacks on this thread, none have been stronger than the attack Jim Wrinn put on some of his readers and long time subscribers with the December editorial.

 

Jay

That was an interesting way to deal with the scepticism around HSR --- call them "uncivilized".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyhow, what I would like to toss in here is the notion that some are actually talking about up here. The idea is to encourage local development of mass transit solutions that may, or may not, include certain aspects of HSR. This ties in with the idea of a general local development framework involving industry and commercial initiatives in that local area---growing local markets for locally made goods and services. How would HSR work in this case? Move from passenger traffic to goods traffic? A generally mixed mode? Different possibilities----but developed in/through locally/regionally derived bases.

There are a whole slew of possibilities within a framework of local initiatives developed through each communities needs/potentials which would not necessarily require large scale governmental involvment.

As for the trans continental HSR proponents--can anyone give this little one a timeframe? A set of proposals as to how this is financed? Routes? Other avenues? I'd really like to see some of that---rather than label all the above as "uncivilized", "nostalgic" and all that. Or the infamous variation of a line  I hear from children---"Well, Joey has an iPod, why can't I?"

[henry6]

Jay, I do think that is a little extreme and uncalled for. But why I'm here now: my political views are of course part of my arguement.  But they are not that dirty word liberal that many of you suppose since it does not align with your views.  I actually consider myself moderate and perhaps even independent.  While I am enrolled as a voter of one party...and probably not the one you think...I never vote straight party lines.  I am not a proponent of one form of transportation nor one solution.  I just believe that we...the US as a whole, many here as a group...are stuck in thier own past, thier own thinking, thier own ruts if you will.  Therefore there will be no consensus found here.  Am I wrong?  Are you wrong? It depends upon who you ask.  And each of those answers is part of a very long and endless thread.

[garr]

greyhounds

Nobody's doing personal attacks (for the most part).  Just give her her head and see where she goes.  Sometimes that's the best option.

 

 

If there have been personal attacks on this thread, none have been stronger than the attack Jim Wrinn put on some of his readers and long time subscribers with the December editorial.

 

Jay

[greyhounds]

selector

Fellas, the dynamic fans are howling, but the speedometer warns me of a losing battle.  Please, let's try to keep overt ideology out of our musings in this thread, or the order will go out to bail.

-Crandell

For my two cents, I think almost everyone has kept this pretty well focused on railroad subjects:.

1)  Jim Wrinn's editorial

2) Government involement in transportation

 It's impossible to discuss either of those topics without bringing in economics.  With some levity about Wrinn's "Uncivilized" remark, the discussion has focused on the two cited topics.  Just let it settle itself out.  Choose the "Do Nothing" option.  Let us settle it among ourselves.

Nobody's doing personal attacks (for the most part).  Just give her her head and see where she goes.  Sometimes that's the best option.

[blownout cylinder]

henry6

Jim, yours is a political opinion.  But I'm not sure its pragmatic.  What I am saying is that we must unshackle ourselves from our political opinions and fears and start thinking in new directions.

And you are not making political opinions? And Jims point is not pragmatic? Development of expansion in terms of the adding of RR into areas previously not serviced or adding to the services---not pragmatic. Huh? Some do not think that there needs be a political decision made as to infrastructure every dang time that a situation arises. He stated some facts-----I'm still waiting for some from the side that seems to think that government involvment is needed.

Why are you talking as if others need to unshackle themselves?  And you by dint of your rhetoric imply that you don't? Hmmmm

[selector]

Fellas, the dynamic fans are howling, but the speedometer warns me of a losing battle.  Please, let's try to keep overt ideology out of our musings in this thread, or the order will go out to bail.

-Crandell

[henry6]

Jim, yours is a political opinion.  But I'm not sure its pragmatic.  What I am saying is that we must unshackle ourselves from our political opinions and fears and start thinking in new directions.

[htgguy]

henry6

So much is eluding many here: if the US doesn't have an infrastsructure, a program, a system, or anything else in place, equal to or better than any other nation in the world, then it can't expect to compete!  Or even worse, we will be purchased by foriegn companies and without a shot being fired we will wake up under a different flag!   Sit there and poke at things based on your political, social, or educational postures, but to say we shouldn't do things in the country to stay competitive and independent is our death knell!  All levels of government have been involved in our transportation, industry, and social sectors since 1776, it cannot be denied that land grants, charters, bailouts, tax easments and benefits, loans and other grants, coalitions and consortiums, the absolute building and maintaining of roads, airports, and highways, schools, hospitals, industrial parks, and...I could go on and on...have happened to make the USA a great nation. So to say that we, we as a nation, should not do anything about anythng for fear of being like Europe or Japan or China or anybody else is total bull simply because if we don't do anything we will be one of them!

I'll try to explain why I think you are wrong.

We don't need more government involvement in railroading. Things are being done. Companies that are not directed by the government have made and are making significant investments in infrastructrure. Want some examples? How about three main tracks on the UP across much of Nebraska? 4 main tracks (up from ZERO mains not that many years ago) hauling coal out of the Powder River Basin. Double tracking of much of the former ATSF trans-con to accomodate increased intermodal business. Huge investments in new, more fuel efficient, and "greener" locomotives. Added and updated signaling on routes across the nation to increase capacity. CWR on more routes across the nation.

Are these things acceptable to you? Were they done at the behest of some central planning agency? No. They were done by investors seeking a place to use capital wisely to earn a rate of return. They did it of their own free will-because they saw a demand that could be met-while earning a rate of return on the invested capital. Yes, they did it because they are greedy-just like you and I. But they put THEIR money on the line, not the taxpayer's. They win and lose from the decisions they make.

I really don't care how Japan, or Europe, or China, do it. I care that the scarce capital that investors are able to generate is used efficiently. I acknowledge that there is no perfect method of directing that investment. The free market will make some colossal blunders. But in the long run, it will produce the most good for the most people. Some will get fabulously rich, some will continue to earn a good living, and some will go broke. I wish no one had to go broke, but that is called "creative destruction".

The alternative is to appoint a bunch of government officials (or even worse, congresscritters) to divy out the money. They will be most concerned with #1 keeping their job and #2 making sure no one benefits "unfairly". This will mis-allocate capital and lead to more misery and suffering for the human race.

That's a short course on why I advocate for the position I advocate for. Can you explain how what you advocate for improve the human condition across the board-not just for the small fraction of people who will ride the HSR trains you would build with tax money?

Thanks, Jim

[schlimm]

greyhounds

If they're going to consider me "uncivilized" I might as well enjoy it.

 

Perhaps just a nostalgia fan.

[blownout cylinder]

greyhounds

edblysard

But I have been a barbarian all of my life...why change now?.

Besides, I kinda like wearing animal skins and living in caves, and can't imagine snails as being food....

I think I'll try to form an "Actvist" group. "Barbarian Railfans North America."  "BRNA-considered to be uncivilized by some Europeans and an editor in Waukesha, Wisconsin."

If they're going to consider me "uncivilized" I might as well enjoy it.

Does being cast as a contrarian count?----sounds like a fun group---

[greyhounds]

edblysard

But I have been a barbarian all of my life...why change now?.

Besides, I kinda like wearing animal skins and living in caves, and can't imagine snails as being food....

I think I'll try to form an "Actvist" group. "Barbarian Railfans North America."  "BRNA-considered to be uncivilized by some Europeans and an editor in Waukesha, Wisconsin."

If they're going to consider me "uncivilized" I might as well enjoy it.

[blownout cylinder]

garr

 What will put us at a competitive disadvantage is the trillions of dollars of national debt we will incur if HSR is truly made national.

 

And this is much more likely to be the case. $8 Billion ? Try a figure like $500 Billion, not including cost over runs. Some of the figures that I've seen actually were closer to the 500 figure with one going to over a trillion dollars.

 In order for a true HSR to work many of the lines used in Europe were designated as such/built as such. Wanna bet this thing will fly in the NE corridor? Where they gonna put it? Oh, and HSR has a few proponents who think Mag-Lev might work.

[garr]

Bucyrus

henry6

So much is eluding many here: if the US doesn't have an infrastsructure, a program, a system, or anything else in place, equal to or better than any other nation in the world, then it can't expect to compete! 

 

I think we have adequate infrastructure to compete.  Some of those countries you admire may actually be getting themselves into a less competitive position by allowing their government to dream up and execute expensive things they don’t need just to make more government.

 

Maybe on 1 count, HSR, the Europeans have us beat in the way of infrastructure. But as far as freight railroads, highways, and airlines I will take the ones in the good ol' USA any day of the week. Not as familiar with waterways, but I imagine ours would beat theirs in that category too.

Now how does being second fiddle in 1 out of 4 (possibly 5) areas of infrastructure put us at a competitive disadvantage to them?

How is HSR which moves people intra-country putting us at a global disadvantage when we have speedier alternatives already in place?

 What will put us at a competitive disadvantage is the trillions of dollars of national debt we will incur if HSR is truly made national.

 

Jay

[blownout cylinder]

henry6

. So to say that we, we as a nation, should not do anything about anythng for fear of being like Europe or Japan or China or anybody else is total bull simply because if we don't do anything we will be one of them!

The problem is in how one formulates the issue. I don't think that one has to rip everything apart and rebuild the entire infrastructure from scratch----or fly headlong like panicing Turkeys into a single system like HSR for example. I still have to see a viable plan to make HSR work. From what a few people I've heard from in Europe are telling me, a lot of th hype around HSR is not very useful either. France right now for example is finding that funding the TGV project is starting to tell on some other aspects of their infrastructure too now--

Look, one issue we have up North of London ON in the Huron, Grey and Bruce counties--one of bridges needing upgrading. No sense in dumping those areas just to pile a bunch of infrastructure money into HSR along the Windsor to Montreal corridor. They have to get the food to our tables too. Yet, this is what a lot of urbanites--already caught up in the allure of HSR are saying---who needs those bridges?---D'uh--the people who feed you? Battle lines are drawn between those who want HSR and those who see a need to keep those things we have going.

The whole thing with HSR is that we need more than just HSR----what about LRT services? How about those areas that hav just enough demand for a rapid transit system involving a shuttle train of some sort? Or?

There is a need to get the head away from the billfold enough to see the possibilities of doing a bunch of different things---without necessarily tossing everything into the bit bucket to service one system.

BTW, it is true that it did take some form of government involvment in many ways it was also through the private individuals who had the visions and the wherewithall to stick to it that got things done--sometimes the governments also acted as a millstone too.

[Anonymous]

henry6

So much is eluding many here: if the US doesn't have an infrastsructure, a program, a system, or anything else in place, equal to or better than any other nation in the world, then it can't expect to compete! 

 

I think we have adequate infrastructure to compete.  Some of those countries you admire may actually be getting themselves into a less competitive position by allowing their government to dream up and execute expensive things they don’t need just to make more government.

[henry6]

So much is eluding many here: if the US doesn't have an infrastsructure, a program, a system, or anything else in place, equal to or better than any other nation in the world, then it can't expect to compete!  Or even worse, we will be purchased by foriegn companies and without a shot being fired we will wake up under a different flag!   Sit there and poke at things based on your political, social, or educational postures, but to say we shouldn't do things in the country to stay competitive and independent is our death knell!  All levels of government have been involved in our transportation, industry, and social sectors since 1776, it cannot be denied that land grants, charters, bailouts, tax easments and benefits, loans and other grants, coalitions and consortiums, the absolute building and maintaining of roads, airports, and highways, schools, hospitals, industrial parks, and...I could go on and on...have happened to make the USA a great nation. So to say that we, we as a nation, should not do anything about anythng for fear of being like Europe or Japan or China or anybody else is total bull simply because if we don't do anything we will be one of them!

[blownout cylinder]

schlimm

You really cannot seem to accept the idea that  the building of an improved passenger rail system isn't just doing what other countries do in a childish, aping of others.

I think the issue here is precisely just this. You don't like what the US does else where but you seem to think that you  should have the US follow Europes lead? And you do mention that other countries are doing just this. Now you crab about the fact that others are picking up on this? You wrote these sorts of things yourself.

Still, the issue here is that HSR might work in some areas---but cannot be made to work everywhere. The HSR situation in Europe is still mostly serving those who live in major urban centers and do not include regular working people as part of the clientele. The cost of those tickets is a little out of the reach of many---although the tax dollars came out of their pockets

As long as the rhetoric here continues to come through the filter of the European experience, or others for that matter, then there will be criticisms of that focal point.

Shall those proponents start to come up with a viable business model to sell their "System"?

[schlimm]

htgguy

I frequently see the argument that "all the cool kids have it-why can't I? I want to be cool too!!!"

 

Name calling is not putting forth a very rational case either.  You really cannot seem to accept the idea that  the building of an improved passenger rail system isn't just doing what other countries do in a childish, aping of others.  If you prefer to spend your tax dollars on endless wars, more and more highways and the like, then I guess that is your choice.  But please have the courtesy in a rail forum not to merely belittle others' thoughts.  Or is your only interest a negative one, or just nostalgia for the good old days?

[htgguy]

Bucyrus

And without HSR, our friends overseas consider us to be an uncivilized nation.

Thanks for putting a big smile on my face. That seems to be what a lot of this is about. I never see a business case roughed out, but I frequently see the argument that "all the cool kids have it-why can't I? I want to be cool too!!!"

[edblysard]

But I have been a barbarian all of my life...why change now?.

Besides, I kinda like wearing animal skins and living in caves, and can't imagine snails as being food....

[blownout cylinder]

Bucyrus

blownout cylinder

 We do not need to do it just because others are----again. Lets think OTHER---than the usual follow the bouncing ball

 

But Mr. Wrinn says we need HSR for societal benefits such as less pollution, better land use, reduced congestion, and getting people off of the highway for their own safety.  And without HSR, our friends overseas consider us to be an uncivilized nation.

The coffee just went up my nose!!

HSR as the new "Magic Bullet"