The Panhandle in NW Indiana was indeed a mess. I saw a couple of trains in the late 70's, one at North Judson and the other at Kouts.
Stepped away from the tracks rather quickly.
ed
Conrail actually spent a lot of money on that line in Ohio, west of Columbus, only to abandon it. It was used to connect with the Big Four line from Cleveland to Indy via Ansonia, OH.
As for the condition of the rest of it toward Logansport and Chicago, I have to agree, from what I know, it was getting to be in bad shape and it did have little on-line business.
The Panhandle route was drying up long before Conrail. Traffic on the line was light and much of the track deteriorated pretty badly under Penn Central.
rrnut282 Two final thoughts on the Erie: Someone ( Hinton, maybe?) observed that the West End of the Erie could have stood on its own without going into bankruptcy. I believe that observation depended upon a lot of bridge traffic. Now, with Conrail ressurected and split up, who would supply that bridge traffic? Second, I've heard rumors that after double-stack traffic took off, Conrail regretted jettisoning the Erie. It already had the clearance for double-stacks and since the lline bypassed all major population centers, there was nothing to slow down the trains.
Two final thoughts on the Erie: Someone ( Hinton, maybe?) observed that the West End of the Erie could have stood on its own without going into bankruptcy. I believe that observation depended upon a lot of bridge traffic. Now, with Conrail ressurected and split up, who would supply that bridge traffic?
Second, I've heard rumors that after double-stack traffic took off, Conrail regretted jettisoning the Erie. It already had the clearance for double-stacks and since the lline bypassed all major population centers, there was nothing to slow down the trains.
I've never really heard that but I've thought that a lot of times and may have even commented on it somewhere in these forums but really don't feel like searching it out.
Your comments made me think of the lost Panhandle from Columbus to Chicago, another lost railroad that, it's been rumored, NS higher-ups asked how they could have ever gutted it. There would be no connection being built at Bucyrus between the NS and the CF&E and track improvements coming had that line been kept by Conrail.
PennsyCC1 Well, these Indiana towns could grow if rail service is put in and rely less on trucks moving through the area. It sounds to me you are being too pessimistic and not optimistic . With a new rail line it could mean thousands of new jobs if they can attract new business and I think they could.
Well, these Indiana towns could grow if rail service is put in and rely less on trucks moving through the area. It sounds to me you are being too pessimistic and not optimistic . With a new rail line it could mean thousands of new jobs if they can attract new business and I think they could.
You have a great idea. Put your money on the line and rebuild it. It is called the "capitalist" or "free enterprise" system.
Mac
I hope you don't really believe that! Those small Indiana towns have not declined over the last 30-40 years due to the lack of rail service. Restoring the old Erie main will not reverse that decline and would not result in any meaningful increase in employment (thousands of jobs; that's a joke). You sound like the guy who wrote that electrification article in last month's "Trains"! It's not called being pesimistic; it's called being realistic.
Furthermore, several (if not most) of these small towns do have some rail service even without the old Erie. These include North Judson, Rochester, Bolivar, Huntington (on the NS main), Kingsland and Decator.
Mike
Rebuilding an abandoned rail line becomes a nearly impossible task, between the land divisions and the building that has gone on, not to mention the loss of structure, as all laid out by MP173, and he didn't even bring up NIMBY's. Not going to happen and won't ever happen. I recall when the I&O, and I'm thinking this is before RailAmerica bought them, wanted to restore one mile of line that had been ripped up in the Greater Cincinnati area. ONE MILE. Oh, the outcry that resulted and it never got done. It probably would have resulted in two or three deaths a week, one would have thought from reading the opposition arguments.
Paul:Hilton's article on Erie Lackawanna was a classic. It was the very first Trains magazine I picked up and immediately was impressed by the magazine and began a long distance love of the EL.
Lets face it, rebuilding the line is next but impossible. With the high speed passenger money around it might be possible, except like a "broken field runner EL manages to avoid" markets. Not too many folks travelling from Chicago to North Judson, Monterey, and Boone Grove these days. Lets face it there isnt much freight either. These little Indiana towns are drying up.
CFE runs in and out of Chicago 2x weekly. Not sure of the days, but it is usually a night operation. The trains are pretty good sized, particularly if Bunge in Decatur needs soybeans. In those situations, the trains might exceed 100 cars.
That sounds pretty shady for NS to have a policy of not letting someone come in and siphon off traffic. Basically, they're trying to monopolize the area (not that NS actually serves certain areas anyway) and they don't want anybody to compete with them in the area. I think that if a shortline concentrates on local business in a certain area (i.e. on the old Erie through Indiana), the railroad can become very profitable and that has been proven on many shortlines as well as regionals. One of the big problems with some of the Class I's of today is that they all just seem to concentrate on run-through business and not local business. I think that not only will railroads become profitable, but they'll get a lot of trucks off the road if they concentrate on local business.
Also, I think that one form of traffic that RJ Corman can get from Chicago would be garbage to landfills in Indiana. That could help in removing a lot of the garbage trucks I see on U.S. 30. Also, the line could possibly attract new custoers in towns such as Rochester, Huntington, North Judson, and even places such as Bolivar, Monterey, etc. It would bring in a lot of much-needed jobs into this part of Indiana.
I don't know. I just think that some of the rail lines east of Chicago have been poorly utilized. They should take a lesson from railroads that run west out of Chicago such as the Iowa Interstate, the ICE, and even the WSOR. Those regionals have been proven to be very profitable in concentrating on local business.
What is the CF&E's current schedule in and out of Chicago?
George W. Hilton once observed that one of the leading wonders of the Erie was negative, how it managed to get from Chicago to New York and miss most of the major traffic sources. Aside from Youngstown, most major cities were not on Erie's Chicago-New York main line. Erie Western and Chicago & Indiana died from lack of on-line traffic sources.
PennsyCC1 I think that a section of line could possibly be restored by RJ Corman between Marion, Ohio and Hammond, Indiana to concentrate primarily on local business today.
I think that a section of line could possibly be restored by RJ Corman between Marion, Ohio and Hammond, Indiana to concentrate primarily on local business today.
Having grew up only 6 miles from the line, I would love to see it rise from the ashes, but in my heart of hearts, I know it's VERY unlikely. For example,
Those are just the hurdles I can think of off the top of my head in one 50 mile stretch. No doubt, they will get more numerous and worse the closer you get to Chicago. Give me time to look up some of my maps, and no doubt, I could come up with other hurdles.
There wasnt enough business online for the Erie Western to survive. No major industries that I know of and relying on agriculture didnt cut it. Conrail had a better route to the east and Santa Fe didnt want the line.
Not sure how RJCorman could swing the finances of rebuilding the line. CFE parallels the line now and has two trains weekly in and out of Chicago.
The Erie Lackawanna in Indiana was never a part of Conrail- in the Conrail plan, the EL lines in Indiana and east to Marion, OH were not included. What traffic that was on the EL upon the creation of Conrail April 1, 1976 was diverted to their PRR and NYC routes since Conrail did not get the EL line. After this non-inclusion, shippers online were able to secure the line and the Erie Western was designated operator of the property through state subsidy from Hammond to Wren, OH and a branch from Decatur to Portland,IN in August of 1977. Craig Burroughs' Trans-Action Associates owned and operated the ERES- (Burroughs also operated the Louisana Midland shortline) When traffic did not materialize as hoped- the subsidy was withdrawn in 1979 and the ERES ceased operation. For a short period of time at the end of 1979 the Chicago and Indiana tried to make a go of the same properties- but failed and was out of business by December of that year.
Conrail moved its trains to Ajantant Lines. EL had hot Piggyback trains that were moved to the NYC Line
Hello once again. I have a couple of questions. Why did the Erie Western and Chicago and Indiana both fail after the end of the E-L in Indiana? I think that a section of line could possibly be restored by RJ Corman between Marion, Ohio and Hammond, Indiana to concentrate primarily on local business today. RJ Corman already owns a segment between Lima and Elgin, Ohio so why not expand. Not only the line could concentrate on local business, but a connection could be built at Marion to the CSX ex-C&O,get trackage rights to Columbus, and maybe connect with the Ohio Central for forwarding traffic to Chicago. I just think that there could be some use of this segment of the old Erie Lackawanna still. What do you think? As always, your thoughts.
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