Autotrain update - June Trains

[Anonymous]

I like the idea of a auto train. Chicago to new york is a good route. HERE ARE SOME MORE I THINK ARE GOOD>
1. Miami-Chicago
2. New York-Dallas
3. Chicago-New Orleans
4. Seatle-Los Angeles

[RudyRockvilleMD]

The reason Auto Train stops in Lorton is it cannot go up the Northeast Corridor because of overhead wires, the Baltimore tunnels ,a dn the tunnels under the Hudson and the East Rivers in New York City. Another reason for ending the Auto Train in Lorton VA is stopping to switch out auto carriers and unload passengers in seveal cities just won't work.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Thinking more about adding to Amtrak's revenue by Autotrain service north of Lorton, up the Corridor. What might make some sense would be to restore the Montrealer, a traqin still needed, once a Veiwliner sleeper is available, replacing the Vermonter. Then, with a special move from Lorton to tack autotrain equipment on the back of the Montrealer. getting the autotrain equipment up the Corridor and through New York congestion without still another "slot", having the equipment dropped off somewhere along the Conncticut River Line, like Northhampton or Holyoke, Massachusetts, where highways are relatively free of congestion, all the way to the Berkshire Mountain and Maine Coast resort locations. If the drop-off location was combined with a Guilford or other intermodal terminal, the facilities might not cost the usual fortune. Dave

The reason Autotrain service ends at Lorton, VA is the clearance restrictions that apply to the tunnel that Amtrak uses to service the Southern routes out of Washington Union Station. The tunnel will not clear GE Dash-8 locomotives account height and width restrictions. While an alternative route could be negotiated over the CSX Alexandria extension, that line is already overly congested with freight traffic and CSX would want an exhorbitant charge to handle any traffic. The CSX route is not unrestricted for clearance as it has to negotiate the Virginia Avenue Tunnel going through the District.

[oltmannd]

rrnut and modelcar

Yeah, they are long. Some car/trailer combos can go 50 ft. Most 5th wheels are less and motorhome only go 40 ft, so if you do it right, you can get 2 per flat.

50 Amps would be peak per unit. You wouldn't have to power for that - maybe an avg peak load of 20 Amps or so which works out to 2.3 KW / unit. Locomotive HEP is typically 500 KW so you could power a couple hudred just using the HEP gen on a single locomotive.

You probably would have to modify the flat cars to coform to FRA passenger stds interms of buff loading, anticlimbers and safety appliances and you'd probably want to use some sort of tie down or wheel chock system, but other than that, I don't know of any regs that would prevent people from riding in RVs on flat cars.

[passengerfan]

Often wondered why Auto-Train never tried a west coast version. Pick up passengers and their cars at both Seattle and Portland and deliver them to Orange County where Disneyland and the rest of the southern California attractions are located. Even Canadians from Vancouver would be able to take advantage of this type operation. It would even be possible to originate part of the train in Bellingham and another part in Spokane with these two sections and the Seattle section all coming together in Portland
for the trip to Orange county or even LA. Interstate 5 becomes quite impassible at times in the winter months. The Coast Starlight has been well patronized since its inception why not a west coast auto-train.

[daveklepper]

Thinking more about adding to Amtrak's revenue by Autotrain service north of Lorton, up the Corridor. What might make some sense would be to restore the Montrealer, a traqin still needed, once a Veiwliner sleeper is available, replacing the Vermonter. Then, with a special move from Lorton to tack autotrain equipment on the back of the Montrealer. getting the autotrain equipment up the Corridor and through New York congestion without still another "slot", having the equipment dropped off somewhere along the Conncticut River Line, like Northhampton or Holyoke, Massachusetts, where highways are relatively free of congestion, all the way to the Berkshire Mountain and Maine Coast resort locations. If the drop-off location was combined with a Guilford or other intermodal terminal, the facilities might not cost the usual fortune. Dave

[Modelcar]

I doubt if approval could be established for people riding in RV's fastened on special flat cars....An accident with a passenger rail car has pretty good protection for the passengers but can one imagine what would happen to people riding in an RV and the train being involved in an accident...especially if it was severe enough to derail the cars and worse....Vehicles would probably bounce around uncomfortably just under normal rail travel for any passengers in the RV's.....

[rrnut282]

Some RVs take up a lot of space (40 feet plus), you might only get 1 or 2 per flat so it would be expensive for big RVs, and so would stringing up power cables for the RVs. A train of any length would also require one loco just to provide HEP at 50 amps per hook-up. I wonder if it would price itself out of the market.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: [i]Have wondered about upper midwest snowbirds migrating to-and-from Arizona and Texas. Lots of community of interest with Colorado Rockies, too.

How about hauling snowbirds with their RVs? Could set it up like a mobile RV park. Would just have to provide 30 to 50 amps @ 115 VAC. RVs can carry enough potable water and have gray/black waste water tanks that will tide people over for a day or two. People would ride/sleep in their RVs. Could use 90' TTX flats, but would have to enclose and have windows since RV windows don't meet FRA glazing law. Chicago and the Northeast would be logical origins. FL and Ariz/NM logical destinations.

[daveklepper]

If the track around Boston could be fixed, yes an autotrain bypassing all congestion from Lorton to a location north of Boston would make sense. With some through equipment from Florida. This would permit economies of scale by using the existing facilities at Lorton. The location north of Boston would serve all of that part of New England that is more car dependent and less transit dependent than Southern New England and the areas around New York and Philadelphia. It might make most sense as a summer-only service when New England has the same kind of draw that Florida does in the Winter. Dave

[jeaton]

This thread reminded me of the service started last winter-a private car hauler has set up a program to ship cars between Arizona and some northern cities via BNSF freight service. Designed for "snowbirds" who spend extended periods in AZ in the winter, don't want to drive and want their own vehicle. Said to be faster than using similar over the road services, but not as quick as hanging racks on the back of passenger trains. Obviously, the carrier holds for "full" loads.

That kind of service might ultimately become an indicator of potential markets for an auto train service.

[rrnut282]

If Autotrain had found a route in/out of Chicago instead of Louisville, it might still be an independant, private orginization. Chicago - Sanford would make sense for an expansion route because of the the servicable market area, not that it's an Amtrak hub. Not too many of the potential connecting passengers would have their car with them...

[oltmannd]

Not sure that the original or current incarnations of AutoTrain are/were earning their cost of capital, that is, they are generating enough profit to be able to finance new equipment. The original AutoTrain got a running start because they picked up all those used dome cars for cheap.

As for new markets, how about some kind of roll-on, roll-off shuttle on the NEC? ...like the Swiss do with their long tunnel. Would be able to by-pass all that traffic congestion. Maybe starting in Lorton and ending in Providence RI with stops at Wilmington, Trenton, and somewhere in SW Conn?

[daveklepper]

1. Amtrak is reluctant to divest profitable or potentially profitable operations to private firms because of the loss of economies and flexiblity of scale. They would simply go deeper into the red on what was retained. 2. From Chicago to the East Coast isn't a good autotrain market because Midswestern visitors to the East Coast are usualy sensible enough to rely on public transportation and taxis for local trainsportation on the East Coast. But Chicago - Denver? Dave

[jeaton]

tomtrain-OK, I get what you are saying and agree. I forget, did the article say that 60 new auto carriers are in the 5 year plan? I'd guess that's high on the list. For political reasons Amtrak has to use a little caution in talking about priorities for capitol projects, but you can bet that every effoirt is made to get money on projects with the biggest dollar potential.

Scott-I think that a very large proportation of the Auto Train users fall into the category of I want MY car with me and I don't want to drive from DC to Sanford. Period. Hang the costs. Your'e probably like most of us, we've got to get that vacation inside a fairly tight budget, even if we have to deal with a hassle factor.

[Anonymous]

I think maybe this is niche market revenue (or loss) for Amtrak. I priced a Disney trip last year taking the auto-train and it was not feasible. Add to that I would have had to drive a considerable distance just to get to the train. At Amtraks rates plus my destination costs- I could fly there and back twice. If Amtrak expanded the service it could possibly become more economical but how could they justify an expansion in auto-train service with the hopes that many will use it?

[Anonymous]

I wasn't suggesting that Autotrain would necessarily become a privately financed and run operation. Just that it would have its own place in the sun, not lost in the problems of Amtrak.

Perhaps it would be subsidized as airline services to small markets have been. Maybe government-backed leases for new equipment. Something specific and measureable nonetheless. (I'm certainly not an expert on the subject).

Maybe it could flourish from there because its basics are sound for TODAY. The article mentioned that the service is attracting several different types of customers. I also might add that the fastest growing population segment is those people between 60 and 65. The baby boomers are getting older. AARP has political power.

Where I live, even rail-to-trail routes receive government backing; for walking, biking, in-line skating, cross-country skiing, snowmobiling, ATVing, horseback riding... All modes of transportation are being subsidized.

I'm not thrilled about government subsidies, because they distort economic conditions and 'someone' is paying for them. There's no free lunch. In today's reality though, they're part of the transportation fabric.

[jeaton]

Auto Train is only relatively successful. The FY 2004 budget/forecast figured about $11,000,000 gross profit. That's revenue minus crews, fuel, food and beverage, fees and commissions to the host railroads, and a share of equipment maintenance and reservation costs. With the addition of the train's share of all the other costs, the train is expected to have an $11 million LOSS. And the loss does not include depreciation and interest on the equipment.

Just for the sake of arguement, let's say that an efficiency expert came in and figured a way to drop the train's share of "other costs" by 75%. So that would make the "profit" about $6 million-except there is the little matter of rolling stock. I am not up to date on the costs for these things, but here is the shopping list give or take a unit or two

5 Locomotives
17 coaches
11 sleepers
4 diners
2 lounge cars
50-60 auto carriers

And the Brooklyn Bridge is for sale again-cheap.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

As I understand Auto Train had some financial mismanagement problems which led to its demise, although Overall is right expanding its operation between Louisville and the Orland area also contributed to its demise. If I remember correctly airline deregulation didn't occur until after Amtrak restarted the Auto Train.

Whether an automobile carrying train service could be successful on other routes is not known. One of the reasons the Auto Train is successful is it carries many senior citizens and their cars between the Northeast and Florida who don't want to, or can't, face driving on I 95.

[Modelcar]

Don't remember when the Floridian was combined with the Auto Train....and the southern terminal is Sanford. Been in to it many times and watched the afternoon train made up and loaded. Even was allowed to board it once some years ago before they started boarding passengers just to look it over. Interesting to watch and one can get permission to go in [to the terminal], and do just that. Another reason for the original private enterprise failure was they had some devastating wrecks. Since the private operation tried and failed before I doubt it would succeed now. Capitol funding is what Amtrak needs now to update the equipment.

[overall]

I'm going on memory here so you will have to excuse me if I may miss a fact here and there. When Auto train first began in the early seventies, it was an astounding success.
The passengers and their cars boarded in Washington DC and were carried non-stop to Orlando Florida. There was live entertainment on board as well as full length dome cars. The Auto train corporation was a private company that owned the equipment and hired all the on board personnel. All the railroad did was provide a crew to run the train.
Even John Knieling praised Auto train as a unit train for passengers that did what a train did best i.e. pick up a bunch of something, carry it to a destination and unload it, in this case, passengers and their autos. He said they were selling what the customer would buy.

As I recall, two things made Autotrain come apart. One was airline deregulation, the other was an expansion into the mid west that did not do well. The mid west expansion went from Louisville Ky to Orlando along the route of Amtrak's Floridian. For a time, the Floridian and the auto train were combined. That did not work either. My guess is that the Auto train itself should have gone all the way to Chicago. Most of the Floridian passengers were Chicagoans going to Florida. It is all academic now.

George

[UPTRAIN]

It was a very nice article...I had no idea what kind of racks they pinned on the end though...hard to imagine that they are 50 years old...also...what would that be like if that car (rack) that happened to contain your VEHICLE got set out or bad ordered!!! Go up to lost lugguge...uh yeah ma'am yall lost my car...how long is it gonna be untill I get it back?

[AntonioFP45]

Rail systems in Great Britain were privitized with similar intents. It failed! With privitization, the intentions start out exceptionally well, however, bueracrats often seize the opportunity to curtail funding where possible.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain

There's an article about the current state of Amtrak's Autotrain in the latest Trains.

If the majority of people in the US are going to be content to let subsidies rule the balance of transportation, then why not separate Autotrain into its own division with its own financing?

It's succeeding, but is dying of financial neglect.

It has the advantage of not needing to serve a network of cities in order to succeed. It doesn't require prime real estate, doesn't need high-speed trackage, is a simple operation (point-to-point like unit coal train service), and allows people to use their own vehicle to get to-and-from where they're going.

Best of all, people want to buy its service (even though they're already paying for I-95).

Also, wouldn't there be other routes that the service could grow into?

For instance, there are 10 million people in the Chicago region and 50+ million in the NEC with an overnight distance between them. Couldn't a service between them be an exciting opportunity to develop?

Can you think of other routes that might work?

I like your idea tomtrain, privitization of the more profitable Amtrak routes is an excellent idea. It would be interesting to see if there was a railroad out there that would be interested in this particular venture, Rail America or Omnitrax perhaps?

Splitting off the parts of Amtrak that are making money would most likely improve service and allow for better micromanagement, not only would it be bringing more companies into the passenger rail service, but it could very well encourage them to expand to other areas and try to make a run at other routes that are not running at present day.

It would also take the burden off of Amtrak to be able to better allocate their rolling stock to routes that need it.

As the article mentioned, there are people currently being turned away from the autotrain service because Amtrak just doesn't have the infastructure to keep up with demand, this is an EXCELLENT opportunity for a company to step in and take a run at it, hopefully making a nice profit in doing so.

I believe that passenger rail can be profitable, it just has to be the right time and place.

Anyone out there who this effects should be writing letters to their congressmen and getting this idea off the ground!

[tup][tup][tup][tup]

[BaltACD]

I may be mistaken, however, I believe when Auto-Train Corp. ran the operation they did have an operation that ran from near Cincinnati to Sanford. It died for a lack of business.

[Anonymous]

There's an article about the current state of Amtrak's Autotrain in the latest Trains.

If the majority of people in the US are going to be content to let subsidies rule the balance of transportation, then why not separate Autotrain into its own division with its own financing?

It's succeeding, but is dying of financial neglect.

It has the advantage of not needing to serve a network of cities in order to succeed. It doesn't require prime real estate, doesn't need high-speed trackage, is a simple operation (point-to-point like unit coal train service), and allows people to use their own vehicle to get to-and-from where they're going.

Best of all, people want to buy its service (even though they're already paying for I-95).

Also, wouldn't there be other routes that the service could grow into?

For instance, there are 10 million people in the Chicago region and 50+ million in the NEC with an overnight distance between them. Couldn't a service between them be an exciting opportunity to develop?

Can you think of other routes that might work?