METRACIDE

[Kootenay Central]

.

[cptrainman]

Yesterday on my return trip, my conductor and I came around a corner and found two teenagers walking down the middle of the track away from us. The first communication between the conductor and myself was, "Do you see them? What the f*** are they doing." By this point we are sitting on the edges of our seats and our ***'s are puckered.

Of course I am blowing the horn but they seem to ignore it. I said to my conductor, "Maybe they are wearing ipods or something and they can't hear us?".

Luckily, we are going through a 10mph slow order so we have time to react properly to this situation.

As we get closer to these two kids, they disappear around a corner and we have lost sight of them. When we approached the same corner, I sounded the horn again and wondered aloud, "Where are they now?".

At this point I'm in db and I take a minimum to facilitate a quick stop as I have no idea where these kids are. My thoughts have now changed from I hope we don't hit them to I better do what I can to stop or else these kids' parents will sue me and ruin my life as well.

This story turns out good. As we got to about 500 feet away from them, they just turned and walked off the tracks. Never once acknowledging our presence.

This story is actually all part of the day and it is not even note worthy except that I found this thread today.

 

[tree68]

We're quibbling over specific numbers when all the references talk about averages.  What sticks in my mind from the many discussions we've had about grade crossing and pedestrian fatalities here on the forum in the years since I've joined is one thing - most engineers emphasized that it wasn't if you were going to be involved in a fatality, but when.

Just like some people manage to get through life never having been involved in so much as a fender bender and others seem to have wrecked more cars than a demolition derby, so to some engineers (as Wabash points out) seem to have the golden touch and never experience such an incident, while others seem to be involved in way more than their share.

Some of those fatalities are truly accidental, even if a driver or trespasser did something they shouldn't have  that put them in harms way.  Some are purely intentional on the part of the victim - rather like "suicide by cop".

 

[zardoz]

jeffhergert

When I was firing, one of the engineers I was assigned to has been involved in 8 fatal accidents, plus more nonfatal ones.

In my 20 years working for Metra/CNW, I was involved in 11 incidents; 8 of them involved fatalities (2 suicides, 1 kid playing 'chicken', 1 FRN looking at another train, 4 motorists going around gates).

[ButchKnouse]

I can believe 3 per man per career for Class I and commuters, but there are 400 Class IIIs out there, many of them low speed low volume operations.

If THESE engineers were included, I'd be shocked if the 3 per engineer figure held up.

[caldreamer]

While riding with my friend who was an engineer on the SP's commuter line from San Jose to San Francisco we were involved in two fatal collisions.  To this day they still bother me. and I have a very thick skin.   John will not talk about them. 

[wabash1]

paul you need to redo your math and find a better web site, and then think about 1 thing, how many engineers on a crew campared to conductors and brakemen. the only job I am aware that they have 2 engineers are on amtrak trains, Now on locals and yard jobs there are 2 ground guys maybe 3. but still 1 engineer.

Now I know guys with 42 years in and hit several cars and killed 1 in a car but only 1 treaspasser killed, another has 3 treaspasser killed 1 guy retired with no fatalities 1 man retires in 14 months no wrecks and no deaths, then their is the other side I know 4 guys who are well above this average.  The main statement omited is not if it happens but when it happens again most are prepared better for it.

[henry6]

I doubt frieght engineers out of hand run more than commuter engineers..  Many commuter engineers can put in about 150 to 250 miles a day...about the same as a freight engineer.  I know a NYSW crew from Little Ferry, NJ to BInghamton, NY might is about 225 in a single day. And one sample NJT crew Hoboken to Hackettstown then Montclair and back to Hackettstown then return to Hoboken can put in about 200 everyday...so milages are probably about the same for both.

[jeffhergert]

When I was firing, one of the engineers I was assigned to has been involved in 8 fatal accidents, plus more nonfatal ones.  I don't know the exact number of nonfatal ones.

One of the other engineers I was with only had been involved in one grade crossing accident over his career.  That one was nonfatal, and I was at the controls.

So when they say an average of 3 fatalities per career, some will have more, while some will have less.

Jeff

 

     

[edblysard]

Paul,

Re work your equation to include grade crossing deaths, tresspassing, suicide, and fatal work place deaths, and I think you will be somewhat surprised.

By the way, a freight engineer in pool service will cover many, many more miles in a month than a commuter engineer.

Check also, but I would bet the states you note are the states with the most railroad miles and the most grade crossings in the US.

[AgentKid]

Paul_D_North_Jr

or trespasser deaths for 2008

Paul,

Whenever I have heard the three fatalities number, it was meant to include both crossing fatalities and trespasser deaths. I have no problems with you math, and including both types of deaths still would not get you to three fatalities.

I think this is a case where anecdote or opinion has been repeated often enough (over at least 25 years that I know of) to have become fact.

AgentKid

 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

I can believe the '3 trespassing fatalities per career' for a METRA engineer [or other commuter engineers], but not for engineers nationwide as a class, including freight engineers.  Here's why:

The OLI data as linked above seems to average around 500 per year [by mere 'eyeball' inspection].  During the course of a typical career - say, 30 years - that totals to around 15,000 persons; at the rate of 3 per career, that means there would be no more than about 5,000 engineers involved.

The AAR says that all US railroads employee about 187,000 people.  I don't know how many or what percentage are engineers, but I'd venture to estimate that it's around 10 per cent - or around 18,000 engineers.  If so, they would average a little less than 1 pedestrian fatality per career.  Or, to look at it another way, for that '3 per career' figure to be true nationwide, then less than 3 per cent of railroad employees would be engineers.  That seems too low to me.

Finally, check out this OLI compilation of a state-by-state breakdown of the pedestrian fatalities for 2007:

http://www.operationlifesaver.org/statistics/statistics05collisionscasulatiesandtrespasscasualtiesbystate.htm

Here are some of the selected top states for trespasser deaths for 2008, plus Indiana - all of which have significant commuter operations, other than Texas:

California - 65

Illinois - 35  + Indiana - 8

Texas - 29

Florida - 26

Pennsylvania - 23

New Jersey - 21

New York - 18

Massachusetts - 15

Total of these 9 states - 240 = almost half of the 458 total for 2008.

So again, I could believe that '3 fatalities per career' for a commuter train engineer, but not so much for a freight engineer.  Does that seem about 'right' to the real engineers here ?  Any other comments or thoughts on this ?

- Paul North.

 

 

[AgentKid]

The three fatalities in a career number I have heard thrown about for Canadian engineers since the eighties. It is by no means a recent or out of thin air number. Operation Lifesaver might have more info on the numbers origin.

EDIT Back in the seventies I recall seeing statistics in the CPR staff magazine of that era that said in Car vs. Car accidents there was a twenty something percent chance of a fatality, and in a Car vs. Train accidents the number jumped to 97%

AgentKid

 

[henry6]

All I was doing is referring to the article.  As I said earlier, from knowing engineers, having been around railroads for many years, I have no reason to doubt these statistics, but if you want to, you can contact AP via thier webpage or through your local newspaper or through Newsweek magazine (the link offered above).

But what I think is most important is that the topic about the effects of fatal (and not fatal) striking of trespassers on locomotive engineers (and others in the cab of a locomotive or train) are being brought to public attention.  Time and again we hear of the woe of the person struck, his familiy, etc., but never about the feelings and reactions of those in the cab or thier families; nor how they and the railroads to deal with it. 

[samfp1943]

henry6

Yes...that's what the article states.  I found the article again on the AP website and is much longer and detailed than the Press issue.  It was posted by AP 5:28PMEDT Aug 13.  The AP post is probably from a Chicago area newspaper as the dateline is Chicago.  However the story goes into statistics and pictures well beyond Metra territory into California and elsewhere.  I don't doubt a word of it having been around railroads and knowing engineers, railroad police officers, et al., for over 60 years myself.

I wish I knew how to set up a link to the story or transfer the story to this forum...it can be done for free, so MODERATOR or EDITOR, please take note: this is a very good story for Trains, both the magazine and the forum.

 

Henry6: 

 I would not argue with what the article you are reporting says,But I would make an argument for a possible statistical error by the writer of the news article. That statistic might be valid for, say Illinois (for METRA engineers alone). The Operationlifesaver,org website has a link for TRESSPASSING fatalities; the latest year reported is 2008:

http://www.operationlifesaver.org/statistics/USDOTstats_trespass.htm

THe same listing has other NATIONAL STATS, AS WELL. THE listings date to 1975. The lowest number of NationalTresspassing fatalities is listed as 391 in 1985.  It would seem to me that the truth is probably more to the side that many engineers suffer more than three fatal pedestrian accidents.

An OLI Presenter BIlly Parker survived a grade crossing accident with a gasoline tanker in Jacksonville, FLa. To hear him recount his experiences is chilling indeed. And shows how an accident of the magnatude shuch as his will effect almost every aspect of ones outlook after the event. A fatality elevates the event to an emotional magnatude that is almost impossible to be ableto shut out of your mind completely. An event shuch as a fatality certainly creates PostTraumatic Stress conditions that will return in a flash with a trigger event occuring. 

 In 2001 (?) there was a CSX crew involved in a school bus crash at a rural crossing on the Georgia-Tennessee line. I'd bet that those men after the interveaning years can still recount that incident.

WE REALLY NEED SOMEONE WITH AUTHORITY TO WEIGH IN ON THIS;  POSSIBLY CSSHEGEISCH. He is probably the most eminently qualified to speak about this, as it's his employment.

 

[MJChittick]

Excellent article. 

I wonder if the quoted statistics (3 fatalities in a career) might be based on Metra data.

[aegrotatio]

 There's a curious movie titled "Rails and Ties" with Kevin Bacon that uses this topic as the plot device.

[Anonymous]

Link to article.

[selector]

Henry, in the window in which the article appears on your screen, at the very top of the screen are arrows left and right with a space beside those arrows, to their right.  In that space is a Uniform Resourced Locator, or URL for short.  It looks like "http//:www and other stuff".  If you click on that URL, and then right click you can find in a drop down menu that opens immediately "copy".  Click on copy and come back to a text box as if you were composing a message to post here.  Place the cursor in the text box, right click, click on "paste", and your URL will appear. Press the "space bar" at the bottom of your keyboard, and it activates the URL for you. Go on to type the rest of your message, and then hit "Post".  Your message and URL should appear.

-Crandell

[henry6]

Yes...that's what the article states.  I found the article again on the AP website and is much longer and detailed than the Press issue.  It was posted by AP 5:28PMEDT Aug 13.  The AP post is probably from a Chicago area newspaper as the dateline is Chicago.  However the story goes into statistics and pictures well beyond Metra territory into California and elsewhere.  I don't doubt a word of it having been around railroads and knowing engineers, railroad police officers, et al., for over 60 years myself.

I wish I knew how to set up a link to the story or transfer the story to this forum...it can be done for free, so MODERATOR or EDITOR, please take note: this is a very good story for Trains, both the magazine and the forum.

 

[ButchKnouse]

The AVERAGE engineer has THREE fatalies per career? Is that for real or some distorted stats used to hype the story?

[henry6]

This morning's Binghamton Press has an Associated Press story about stress and the residual emotional impact railroad engineers get from fatal rail accidents, especially those who commit suicide by stepping in front of a trian.  The story is based on Chicago's Metra experiences, thus "Metracide" meaning suicide by train.  Of course we know that to be a problem for every railroad engineer or anyone who is in the cab of a train when such an incident happens.  Several interesting facts brought out include that an average engineer in involved in three fatalities in the course of a career.

Above I said "we know...the problem"  as railfans that engineers face.in such incidents.  But I applaud AP and any media outlet that published or reported the story for bringing this important fact to the attention of the public.