This is old news; wondering why it hasn't shown up in Trains Newswire yet. Ceiling collapse in Blossburg Tunnel at summit of Mullan Pass. Not expected to reopen until at least next week. Detours via Marias Pass and Great Falls. Eastbounds that had made it east of Missoula had to backtrack (with their power run around to their west ends, of course) more than 240 miles to Hauser, Idaho, in order to be rerouted. BNSF issuing customer service delay advisories.
....Re: tunnel ceiling collapse....I suppose economics {what else}, is a major factor in upgrading such things as tunnel safety.
I wonder if a tunnel {any tunnel with questionable roof structure}, would have a concrete liner with appropriate thickness and structured in a manner having a barrel shaped ceiling...wouldn't it be almost trouble and maintenance free over the long term. Maybe even cost effective.
Quentin
Was there a train in the tunnel at the time of the collapse? If so, was anyone hurt? Maybe (if it is applicable her) a day lighting project would help lower costs, and help lessen any future problems.
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
Because it wasn't exactly a news event. Scheduled maintenance, there is ongoing work in the tunnel, and they dug into a geologically unstable area. Now that must be stabilized and cleaned out. Probably not newsworthy outside of the area. Wasn't exactly a tunnel collapse, in the sensational Hollywood movie way some want to think it is.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
I don't know anyone who is thinking of this in a "sensational Hollywood movie way." A 50-foot high cavity opening up above a tunnel ceiling is serious business. The fact that the ceiling collapse took place during a scheduled project makes it even more unusual and noteworthy than if it happened on its own, or as a result of a tunnel fire. People were in there working, whose lives may have been at immediate risk. Planning and procedures will now be under a microscope. It's become one of those "man-against-mountain" stories instead of just another forgotten maintenance episode.
From a railroading standpoint, it's a substantial incident. Roughly one third of BNSF's northern corridor traffic runs across MRL. Several daily coal and grain trains (as well as their empties), multiple manifests (a couple of which handle time-sensitive Boeing fuselages and other parts), and a small amount of intermodal traffic must all now detour hundreds of miles to the north or south. The impact to operations and customers is being felt from Texas and the Midwest to the Pacific Northwest, and beyond the Pacific Ocean. It's not just local.
From a railfanning standpoint, it's huge. MRL is one of the most popular railfan destinations in North America. Check out some of the websites beyond trainsmag.com and see how many people are posting trip reports and photos from their MRL visits, and how many are asking about summertime projects (like the one at Blossburg Tunnel) to see whether they will hamper their travel and photography plans.
Three days after the fact, Newswire posted a story on it, so it must be newsworthy, right?
Tunnel lining repair and replacement, and back and ribs stabilization, is always a project to which there is substantial risk and uncertainty attached. Underground conditions by definition are not known until they are uncovered, and old railway tunnels almost always have interesting things waiting discovery when linings are pulled. Sometimes when a timber set is pulled a veritable forest of old rotten cribbing will fall out, and when you gaze upward there's an overbreak the size of a hi-cube boxcar reaching up into the gloom. That's when the contractor starts rubbing his hands in glee thinking of all the cubic feet of cellular concrete he will pumping into the void at 10% overhead and 10% profit, and the poor railway engineer with cost responsibility starts thinking that at least his new career options as assistant manager at McDonalds comes with discounted meals.
A back collapse due to an old overbreak zone or seam, uncovered when timber sets or steel sets are pulled, is a dime-a-dozen. If I had a dollar for every tunnel project I've known of where something unforseen happened, I'd be retired by now. That's why tunnel projects are estimated with substantial contingencies built in.
To me, a closure of a primary main line for several days is mildly newsworthy, like a big derailment. That a tunnel lining project ran into unforseens, not really news to me. Maybe if it's closed for a month or two, that would be unusual.
RWM
Railway ManTunnel lining repair and replacement, and back and ribs stabilization, is always a project to which there is substantial risk and uncertainty attached. Underground conditions by definition are not known until they are uncovered, and old railway tunnels almost always have interesting things waiting discovery when linings are pulled. Sometimes when a timber set is pulled a veritable forest of old rotten cribbing will fall out, and when you gaze upward there's an overbreak the size of a hi-cube boxcar reaching up into the gloom. That's when the contractor starts rubbing his hands in glee thinking of all the cubic feet of cellular concrete he will pumping into the void at 10% overhead and 10% profit, and the poor railway engineer with cost responsibility starts thinking that at least his new career options as assistant manager at McDonalds comes with discounted meals. A back collapse due to an old overbreak zone or seam, uncovered when timber sets or steel sets are pulled, is a dime-a-dozen. If I had a dollar for every tunnel project I've known of where something unforseen happened, I'd be retired by now. That's why tunnel projects are estimated with substantial contingencies built in. To me, a closure of a primary main line for several days is mildly newsworthy, like a big derailment. That a tunnel lining project ran into unforseens, not really news to me. Maybe if it's closed for a month or two, that would be unusual. RWM
Exactly! If the tunnel is lined it indicates that the rock has a history of weakness. Often times what records remain from the construction phase(s) are a little short on details so you don't really know what may be lurking behind the surface of the wall or crown, or even how thick the lining actually is (as opposed to what the design drawings intended).
It is usually safer to improve clearances by lowering the floor, but that requires major track closures to accomplish and is rarely feasible for longer tunnels.
John
Bruce KellyThree days after the fact, Newswire posted a story on it, so it must be newsworthy, right?
It's not news to non-foamers, meaning, CNN, FOX, ABC wouldn't report it unless there was a huge accident , that's what I am saying.
I think they should just daylight the tunnel! Yeah, that's not going to happen though it wouldn't be a bad idea since all of the problems that they have had over the coarse of this tunnel being around. Problem is that the gound is weak and a lot of it is due to ground water. Looks to be not until Wednesday until they predict the tunnel to be ready for trains. Too Bad BNSF doesn't use the Homestake Pass that they own. Should have kept it up as back up.
--Zak Gardner
My Layout Blog: http://mrl369dude.blogspot.com
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zgardner18 I think they should just daylight the tunnel! Yeah, that's not going to happen though it wouldn't be a bad idea since all of the problems that they have had over the coarse of this tunnel being around. Problem is that the gound is weak and a lot of it is due to ground water. Looks to be not until Wednesday until they predict the tunnel to be ready for trains. Too Bad BNSF doesn't use the Homestake Pass that they own. Should have kept it up as back up.
In round numbers to daylight that tunnel would be about 6 million cubic yards of rock at $50/yard = $300 million, plus about five years to negotiate with the Forest Service for the land acquisition, prepare the NEPA documents, hold the public hearings, deal with local opposition. Do you think that would be cost-effective?
Do you think it would be cost-effective to spend $75,000 per mile per year to maintain Homestake Pass for the occasional re-route?
Well, we all know that we can all keep dreaming that some day the Homestake Pass will see trains once again but there is no reason nor no way someone is going to spend the money that it will take to re open it that is unless there would be some kind of insentive in Butte that would require trains to move East.
Mullan Tunnel at the rate its going with the weak granite rock from above that likes to move when the sand around them get wet and runs off just might daylight its self if the tunnel structure isn't able to support it. So only time will tell but for the mean time I'm sure the tunnel will be up and ready for trains in no time and we all can just wait and see what the mountain does next.
Side note: daylighting the tunnel would not be a good thing since I plan on modeling the East end on my future layout. I want a tunnel not a cut.
Geared SteamIt's not news to non-foamers, meaning, CNN, FOX, ABC wouldn't report it unless there was a huge accident , that's what I am saying.
I never questioned the lack of reporting by other news sources; just the fact that Trains Newswire hadn't jumped on it for several days and some readers of this forum might not have heard about it.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Railway Man [snip] Do you think it would be cost-effective to spend $75,000 per mile per year to maintain Homestake Pass for the occasional re-route?
Why such a high figure per mile for this line ? Without adjusting for 'special needs' or extensive local knowledge - which I don't have here - I usually use from $1 to $5 per track-foot = $5,000 to $25,000 per track-mile to budget for annual maintenance. The lower figure is applicable for very few trains, mostly weather-related deterioration [replacing wood ties and cleaning ditches, etc.]; the higher figure - and maybe even more - for more traffic lots of grade crossings, bridges, tunnels, turnouts, snow or mudslide removal, etc.
I do agree with your conclusion and the economic principle behind it - that the annual cost of the 'cover' via the alternate route is much more than the annualized probable cost of the 'risk' exposure otherwise = the increase [only] in cost of the occasional [once every few years] of a closure and the resulting detour moves, etc. So I'm wondering which of the above conditions - or something else - is driving the higher figure, that's all.
- Paul North.
Paul, I don't have specific numbers for the line in question, and I am not making an estimate on it. I will say that when you have a line that is laid with light stick-rail, with large bridges, several tunnels, geotech issues, very heavy grades and curves, and was not maintained while in operation in the expectation that it would be around forever, the costs will be high.
In general, I think the $25,000 figure is much, much lower than I am seeing for a main track with heavy axle loadings and moderate gross tonnage.
About Homestake pass, I had heard or read somewhere that the rails in Butte leading to the grade were pulled up, can anyone confirm? I wonder how much it would cost to get the pass up to standards? It would be nostalgic to see a train on Homestake again, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Geared Steam About Homestake pass, I had heard or read somewhere that the rails in Butte leading to the grade were pulled up, can anyone confirm? I wonder how much it would cost to get the pass up to standards? It would be nostalgic to see a train on Homestake again, but I wouldn't bet on it.
The topic of the Homestake pass has been on our MRL Yahoo Group for some time ( so has Mullan's tunnel problem) and according to one guy who just drove by them in the last 48 hours said that the rails are still there. I walked a small part of the line about 5 years ago and they were still there
Sorry I didn't read your post clearly when you said about the rails in Butte LEADING TO THE GRADE. That I don't know.
Cool, did you start at the summit? I've wanted to walk it as well but I'm always passing though and never have time unfortunately. It would be neat to ride it on a 4 wheeler. I-90 is a great hwy to view ghosts, MILW on one side and NP on the other in some cases.
I remember my first time through the area and seeing all the rock formations. Then all of a sudden I saw what looked to be possibly train tracks. Then it was confirmed when I saw a tunnel. I knew then that I had to learn about this area and the tracks that I saw. So the wife was out of town with our young boy so I figured it was the best time to drive overthere (from Bozeman) and check it out. I'm not sure if I started at the summit but there was an area where trucks would pull off of the highway so I started there and walked back to the tunnel that I posted the picture of. Half way on my hike my mind started wondering and the feelings of "what the hell am out doing" without a gun in case a bear or mountain lion wanted me for lunch. Other than that the line was really neat too see. I think that it would make a wonderful attraction for a passenger excursion.
I then headed over to Silver Bow hoping to see UP in Montana--No luck, then up to Mullan to sit for over 4 hours with no trains.
zgardner18 remember my first time through the area and seeing all the rock formations. Then all of a sudden I saw what looked to be possibly train tracks. Then it was confirmed when I saw a tunnel. I knew then that I had to learn about this area and the tracks that I saw.
That pretty much is exactly what happened to me. Being from far NW Montana (Libby) we always seem to venture north, east and west, never spent much time down in that area but when I first drove over the pass back in 1980 thats when I noticed those features you mentioned. Now being 2500 miles away from home for the last 24 years, I only get to visit on vacations, and of course, no time for exploring. Maybe someday....Neat pictures, Ron Nixon took some great photos when the pass and the NP were alive and well.
Geared Steam Ron Nixon took some great photos when the pass and the NP were alive and well.
Ron Nixon took some great photos when the pass and the NP were alive and well.
How do I get to see those photos?
To name just two -
Back issues of Trains, from around the 1940s through roughly the 1970s.
Any book on the NP, such as those by Charles Wood and/ or Superior Publishing Co. - Main Street of the Northwest comes to mind.
I'm sure there are many others.
- PDN.
zgardner18 Geared Steam Ron Nixon took some great photos when the pass and the NP were alive and well. How do I get to see those photos?
Zak,
This should work-
http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/
11,753 pictures, but I don't believe you can post a link to individual shots.
nanaimo73 zgardner18 Geared Steam Ron Nixon took some great photos when the pass and the NP were alive and well. How do I get to see those photos? Zak, This should work- http://muse.museum.montana.edu/rvndb/ 11,753 pictures, but I don't believe you can post a link to individual shots.
Just getting back to this thread, thank you for responding to Zak. It's a neat resource for Ron's pictures. I picked up a cd from the museum in Bozeman several years ago, it was a power point presentation narrated by one of Ron's friend, basically he went through a ton of photo's, and read Ron's notes about how, why and when the photot was taken, The guy is a great storyteller, Ron worked for the NP, but on his NP excursions would shoot the Milwaukee Road and GN as well.
Now back to the topic!
The tunnel has reportedly suffered a second collapse. Trains that were being staged for resumption of service in the next day or two are now being pulled back to begin detouring again.
In addition to the detours which have been running via BNSF to the north and UP to the south, MRL has been running something we haven't seen in quite a while, Spokane-Missoula and Missoula-Spokane symbols, powered by MRL units no less. In the normal course of operations, MRL power rarely strays west into Idaho or Washington.
Back in the sixties the eastbound North Coast Limited and westbound Mainstreeter operated over Homestake Pass and there opposite numbers operated over Mullan. It was a beautiful sight climbing the pass from an NP dome looking back over the valley and Butte below.
Al - in - Stockton
It has been an interesting couple of weeks watching the additional rail traffic on BNSF's Laurel sub between Laurel and Great Falls, Mt. Before the BNSF could get through the glut of additional trains on the sub there were a few train crews that used up their hours of service and some amazing trains. There have been a number of additional coal and grain unit trains. I do not know if it was the result of not enough fresh crews but there were at least 3 combined general freights with two and three up front units, 2 dp units in the middle of the train and one dp unit on the end. Amazingly long trains. Since that 1st 10days of the MRL tunnel closure things have evened out on the sub. Roughly 6 to 8 trains a day up from the usual 2 and it appears crew hours issues have ended.
The tunnel cave ins have got to be frustrating for the crews on Mullan. Now it is scheduled to be open on August 9th. That has to be a dangerous job.
FYI
The latest direct from MRL: " As a result of ongoing problems in resolving tunnel issues, MRL will delay announcing an estimated re-opening date until further notice. Day-to-day information will continue to be posted by 3:00p.m." See: http://www.montanarail.com/news_upda...en_tunnel.aspx
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