Train vs. Tornado

[tleary01]

Just to clarify the action of PCS on Union Pacific locomotives.  When CNW was merged I issued the project to modify CNW locomotive air brakes to UPRR standards.  PCS opens and locomotive consist power is immediately reduced to idle at the initiation of a penalty application, brake handle placed in emergency position, or the conductor's emergency brake valve is opened.  On an emergency brake application from the train PCS open is delayed 20 seconds.  The 20 seond delay is intended to permit the engineer to bail off the locomotive brake and use the throttle to keep the locomotive moving away from a train separation.  If the engineer places the brake handle in emergency position PCS will open instantly. 

All UPRR locomotives retain dynamic brake during penalty or emergency from any source, PCS will open but has not effect on dynamic brake.  There are two reasons, keep train slack from running out and permit the engineer to retain dynamic brake on decending grades when all available braking is needed.  

[richg1998]

 According to one article, the dispatcher knew but did not alert the engineer. I understand the dispatcher was fired.

Rich

[CShaveRR]

I don't think they need to increase the number of buffer cars on the off chance that the intervening cars are going to be blown away by the weather. But I'm pretty sure that train makeup rules on the UP were changed after this incident (I doubt whether it was the cause of the change). Under current rules, a block of empties might not have been able to be placed directly behind the locomotives. I wonder if the outcome would have been different had any of those covered hoppers been loads.

Keep in mind, too, that this tank car was specifically designed to handle the particular commodity, and was of fairly recent construction. The news reports say that this car did not leak--pretty good evidence of the way they're building them these days. I would like to see a photograph of the wreckage--perhaps an aerial view--that shows the locomotives and this tank car. It isn't obvious from this footage exactly how things finally landed.

[frankodragon]

How many cars are required to be separated between a tanker car carrying haz material and the locomotive(s) when strung together?  I thought six was the minimum although I seen only maybe 5 cars between the locomotives-it was hard to see or maybe the tanker WAS the 6th car.  Maybe they should up that to 8 after that tanker sliding.

[DennisHeld]

Awesome!

trainfan1221

 I didn't get a clear impression the train was trying to stop, only that it definitely ran into something.  A tornado that close might not be all that visible, also it might have run into it just forming. Either way, the engine seemed to remain intact, at least until the rest of the train came running after it.

I thought the US Weather Service would have giving the warning to the R.R. and able to stop the train. Like everyone say's "January". oh boy!

<

Even though the tornado was on the ground in Poplar Grove, IL (15 miles to the SW) the sirens didn't sound in Harvard until the tornado had passed. So, residents didn't get a warning. But a January tornado in northern IL is extremely rare.

[Awesome!]

trainfan1221

 I didn't get a clear impression the train was trying to stop, only that it definitely ran into something.  A tornado that close might not be all that visible, also it might have run into it just forming. Either way, the engine seemed to remain intact, at least until the rest of the train came running after it.

I thought the US Weather Service would have giving the warning to the R.R. and able to stop the train. Like everyone say's "January". oh boy!

[Deggesty]

Kootenay Central

Apparently, in the glory days of steam, a train stalled in a long tunnel amidst the sound of the exhaust and the smoke filling the cab.

The Engineer, hunched in his seat with the window closed against the fumes, never shut off, and noticed nothing awry until the Conductor, who had walked up from the Caboose tapped him on the shoulder wondering why they had stopped in the tunnel.

The drivers had cut down to the ties, so they say.

There is also the story of a stalled freight in the first Cascade Tunnel. After some time of running, the headend crew thought that they should have long been out into the open (fixed speed)--and when they stopped and got down, they found that the drivers had ground through the head down into the web.

I have often wondered: just how do you get the engine and train out? Jack sufficient wheels up to give working room, remove the damaged rails, and put new rails in?

Johnny

[zardoz]

Kootenay Central

The senior Engineers 6 decades ago said that they could put a steam engine on a freight train into emergency from the brake stand for, say, a truck at a crossing, which then cleared, and go back to Release, then Running, and carry on as before with no stop.

You can also do that with 24RL brake valves.  As recently as only 3 decades ago CNW's E8s and F7s had 24RL brakes (before the locomotives were rebuilt for Metra with 26L brake valves).

Some of the 24RL brake valves had a 'full release' feature on the opposite side of the 'emergency' portion.  This feature would put 'straight air' directly into the trainline, causing a much faster release; however there was always a danger of overcharging the trainline by doing this, as main drum pressure (~130psi) was sent through.

[Kootenay Central]

.

[jeffhergert]

If the emergency is initiated back in the train, many UP engines now have a 20 second delay before losing power when the PCS opens.

Jeff 

[zardoz]

WSOR 3801

zardoz

WSOR 3801

the PCS cuts the power when the air goes.   

Is that feature still operational these days? Many years ago there were many discussions on the old CNW regarding the desireability of this feature.  It was concluded that having it active is a really bad idea; consequently, the PCS was disabled on our locomotives.

 

Every engine I've been on has it functional.  Even UP engines on rock trains, and the ones WSOR bought at the UP scrap sales.  One of our customers had a SW1 that seemed to predate the PCS feature.  They would try to drag around empty boxcars that were dumped.  Many other things they would do out there.  

Well, it has been many years since I was running; they must have had a change of philosophy.  Back then the thinking was that the risk of the rear of a train running into the front part after a separation was more of a safety risk than whatever safety reason anyone could come up with for having the PCS active.

[zardoz]

bubbajustin

Well, some things I just can't answer...

There are many things mortal man cannot (yet) answer; but it does one's soul good to just contemplate the questions.

bubbajustin

don't you agree that it's a good thing that that hopper was in the way?

Yes, I do agree that it was fortunate that the hopper was in the way of the locomotives.

[DennisHeld]

jeaton

DennisHeld

richg1998

Here is a little follow up.

Here's a YouTube of the actual tornado, but not near the Lawrence train scene. BTW, they just showed the YouTube of the derailment of WGN, Chicago on the news.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YSKv4KZlrA

 

Thanks for activating my link. The Harvard tornado shown was just after passing Lawrence. Harvard is my hometown and i grew up 2 miles north of the tornado's path. My mother lives in a house that was 2 miles south of the tornado. The police cruiser seen by the overturned semi was driven by my nephew, a Harvard policeman. He was pulled from the semi scene to help with the hazmat evacuation at the Lawrence derailment. The storm chasers had the highway wrong. Highway 23 doesn't go north of Harvard. They were actually on highway 14.

[WSOR 3801]

zardoz

WSOR 3801

the PCS cuts the power when the air goes.   

Is that feature still operational these days? Many years ago there were many discussions on the old CNW regarding the desireability of this feature.  It was concluded that having it active is a really bad idea; consequently, the PCS was disabled on our locomotives.

 

Every engine I've been on has it functional.  Even UP engines on rock trains, and the ones WSOR bought at the UP scrap sales.  One of our customers had a SW1 that seemed to predate the PCS feature.  They would try to drag around empty boxcars that were dumped.  Many other things they would do out there.  

[jeaton]

DennisHeld

richg1998

Here is a little follow up.

Here's a YouTube of the actual tornado, but not near the Lawrence train scene. BTW, they just showed the YouTube of the derailment of WGN, Chicago on the news.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YSKv4KZlrA

 

[DennisHeld]

richg1998

Here is a little follow up.

Here's a YouTube of the actual tornado, but not near the Lawrence train scene. BTW, they just showed the YouTube of the derailment of WGN, Chicago on the news.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YSKv4KZlrA

[bubbajustin]

zardoz

bubbajustin

One thing sure is for sure, someone from a higher power was watching over that train that day.

If 'someone' was truly watching over the train, wouldn't 'they' have caused the tornado to go away, or cause the train be delayed so as to not have been there at all during the tornado, or perhaps had the train going faster so it would pass the area before the tornado, or perhaps .....etc.......

And to answer your railroad question: correct. The EOT will indicate both air pressure as well as motion (or lack thereof).

Well, some things I just can't answer... Nevertheless of the diffrence of thought, don't you agree that it's a good thing that that hopper was in the way? I mean, it would have just plowed into the locomotive. Sure, the hopper did too, but it was coupled.

[CShaveRR]

They just showed the last portion of this video on the local news. No explanation except that this is "what happens when a train and a tornado collide." They got the location correct.

[Kootenay Central]

Amazing Video, Thank You!

[richg1998]

Here are some other tornado train meets many years ago.

http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/history/tornadotrains.htm

Rich

 

[richg1998]

Here is a little follow up. Turn down the speaker volume first. The music is loud and obnoxious. Scroll down and read the text.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aB08ASei28

 Rich

[Sunnyland]

That was awesome.  When I took Southwest Chief a few years ago across Kansas, we were on a slow or stop order a good part of the night.  I'd wake up in my sleeper and could tell we were barely moving or had stopped.  The next day, my car attendant said there had been high winds and tornados all around us. When the wind gets above 60 mph, Amtrak has to run very slow or stop.  I don't know if freight railroads are restricted that way or not.  I wouldn't want to be in a Superliner car up high and get blown over.  They sway more than  the old coach cars anyway.  The only time I can remember a lot of swaying was coming back with my parents on NYC from New York and the sleepers had been taken off, so the diner was the last car.  As we ate, the car kept swaying without it's rear anchor, like a mild crack-the-whip.  And I saw a large freight wreck from the windows of the UP City of St. Louis somewhere in Calif, the porter had told us to watch for it and we did.  Cars were smashed and spread out all along the track as we crawled past. 

[zardoz]

WSOR 3801

the PCS cuts the power when the air goes.   

Is that feature still operational these days? Many years ago there were many discussions on the old CNW regarding the desireability of this feature.  It was concluded that having it active is a really bad idea; consequently, the PCS was disabled on our locomotives.

[WSOR 3801]

spikejones52002

 You hear the air dump in the engine. The train was not going that fast. Why didn't the brakes on the cars lockup.

 

Track speed in that area was 30-40 mph.  Even dumping the air, it will take a half mile or more to stop at that speed.  The engines by themselves stopped quicker, even if the hogger bailed off, as the PCS cuts the power when the air goes.   

 

[Soo 6604]

BaltACD

tree68

yellowducky

My wife wants to know if what the crew heard sounded like a freight train when the tornado hit?

Help!   I'm laughing so hard I can't breathe!  

Another forum I participate in posed the question that if a Tornado sounds like a freight train, then correspondingly a freight train must sound like a tornado...if that is the case then...do the noises cancel each other out?  Pondering that could make you head explode...

I'm confused.....the horn that was heard, was that the train or the tornado sounding its horn for the collision with the train?

[spikejones52002]

 You hear the air dump in the engine. The train was not going that fast. Why didn't the brakes on the cars lockup. I seen the sparks under the tank. It looked like debris across the rails from the dropped cars.

As for the camers. The South Shore placed one in every cab on the fireman's side. They video what is ahead and behind.On the old cars that is two cameras per car and married pair of the new cars.

[zardoz]

bubbajustin

One thing sure is for sure, someone from a higher power was watching over that train that day.

If 'someone' was truly watching over the train, wouldn't 'they' have caused the tornado to go away, or cause the train be delayed so as to not have been there at all during the tornado, or perhaps had the train going faster so it would pass the area before the tornado, or perhaps .....etc.......

And to answer your railroad question: correct. The EOT will indicate both air pressure as well as motion (or lack thereof).

[bubbajustin]

One thing sure is for sure, someone from a higher power was watching over that train that day. If that hopper wasn't in the way, I think the outcome would have been much worse. It seems to me that the couplers would have broken beetween the -8 and that 1st hopper. I wonder why? Also depending on how much train you are pulling, the weight, and track conditions, just because the EOTD said the train was in emergancy doesn't mean it was stopped. Right?

[BaltACD]

tree68

yellowducky

My wife wants to know if what the crew heard sounded like a freight train when the tornado hit?

Help!   I'm laughing so hard I can't breathe!  

Another forum I participate in posed the question that if a Tornado sounds like a freight train, then correspondingly a freight train must sound like a tornado...if that is the case then...do the noises cancel each other out?  Pondering that could make you head explode...