SunnylandIt seemed like it took 15 minutes to pass through the tunnel, it was dark for a long time.
SunnylandThanks for all the info, everyone. I didn't know that the Tunnel wasn't being used by Amtrak. I came thru there on the original Zephyr in the 60's. It seemed like it took 15 minutes to pass through the tunnel, it was dark for a long time.
Thanks for all the info, everyone. I didn't know that the Tunnel wasn't being used by Amtrak. I came thru there on the original Zephyr in the 60's. It seemed like it took 15 minutes to pass through the tunnel, it was dark for a long time.
Somewhere in this thread there must be something written to create that impression? Amtrak CZ passes through Moffat Tunnel each way daily.
RWM
Thank you all for the historic background. Also the photo's. Thay are wonderfull. I imagane that there were many snowsheds on this line. There would about have to be.
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
The thing that made operations over the "hill" so difficult was only partially the heavy 4% grade. Much worse was the snow and cold at the high altitude. The Moffatt owned three rotary plows. Two were kept busy all winter (which lasted nine months of the year) and the other was always in the shops having its blades rebuilt from chewing rocks and trees.
Snow could and did fall during any month of the year. I have been there in July in the middle of a heavy snowstorm with many feet of snow on the ground. Snow would nearly always be 10 feet deep in many places during the winter. The only way operations at Corona could be conducted was by constructing massive snowsheds covering tracks, station and dining halls, too. During the severe storms that swept the divide, the line would be drifted shut if a plow train didn't get through for more than about eight hours.
Freezing and thawing cycles caused ice to quickly fill the culverts and freeze between the rails. This derailed the plows and even the heaviest locomotives and was much too heavy to be handled by flangers. This problem was solved by installing giant ice picks on three of the Moffat's 2-6-6-0 mallets-of-all-work that could be raised and lowered by means of air cylinders. These picks could drop down between the rails, the mallet would snort and spin its wheels and move forward to tear out the ice. Then the mallet would back up to the nearest siding, pick up the rotary and the rotary would move forward, scoop it up and fling it out of the cut. This process would be repeated over and over until the ice was cleared. All of this was a nightmare in good weather and was virtually impossible in bad.
Snowslides would roll plows, locomotives and trains off the tracks and down the mountainsides. Trains would be stranded in blizzards and engines would go dead if they ran out of water from battling heavy snow. What a difference the Moffatt Tunnel made to the Moffatt. Gone were the days of battling snow combined with heavy grades. (Isn't railroading wonderful?)
wanswheel Square Water Tank http://www.moffatroad.org/DSLHS/vol41.htm
Square Water Tank
http://www.moffatroad.org/DSLHS/vol41.htm
wanswheel,
Thanks for that reference. That sure is it all right. I was only there once and it was a sunny winter afternoon. It sure looks like the tank and the location. Even the lighting is the same, including the shade being cast by the hill with the tunnel right behind the photographer. I don’t think that wood planked casing in the foreground around the base of the tank was intact, but I recognize the basic tub above. Apparently, if I understand it correctly, that square tank was unique and the only one used on the DN&P. It is really nice to see it so clearly documented because otherwise, in my mind, the one encounter with that tank is a rather obscure memory. At the time, it seemed significant because it was extant so long after the line was abandoned, and because it was square.
A friend of my dad's took me fishing at Yankee Doodle Resevoir (as he called it) in the late 50's, early 60's. I was about 10. I caught the limit. Even then, I knew something about Rollin's Pass, and could see where the old roadbed was. Too bad there aren't trains running on it. Fishing and trains. Can't beat it.
wanswheel Panoramic photo http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/pan/6a19000/6a19700/6a19700r.jpg Maps http://www.phantomranch.net/ghostown/articles/moffatroad.htm http://www.jsmatt.com/photo_album1.0.html
Panoramic photo
http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/pan/6a19000/6a19700/6a19700r.jpg
Maps
http://www.phantomranch.net/ghostown/articles/moffatroad.htm
http://www.jsmatt.com/photo_album1.0.html
“Signpost #4 at 7.4 miles. There you could park and walk up an old grade to the right to arrive at possibly the only square water tower still standing in the United States. Just beyond it, Tunnel 31 is completely caved in.”
As I mentioned earlier, I recall finding a derelict rectangular box water tank along the old roadbed, on the north side, around 1972. It was still standing fairly intact, but quite deteriorated. It took a few minutes of contemplation to conclude that it was a water tank. There were lots of iron rods and bolts holding it together. I was rather surprised that it was built as a box, rather than a cylinder, and I wondered if that was a common practice on that line.
tomikawaTT Twentysomething years ago anyone with a sturdy automobile and a taste for adventure (as in, more guts than brains) could drive the old Rollins Pass route, which was on the roadbed except for a few spots like Rifle Sight Notch, where it skipped the loop. I drove it from west to east, including two old trestles (solidly decked over) and the Needle's Eye tunnel (a tight fit for the old Duster.) Arrived at the bottom a few hundred yards from the Moffatt Tunnel's East portal. That's where I saw the sign: Road closed. Needle's Eye Tunnel impassable. All it said on the west side was: Rough forest road. Four wheel drive recommended. As I was bounding downgrade (the road was surfaced with baseball-size rocks) I couldn't help imagining what it would have been like dropping down that grade in the cab of a 2-6-6-0. The people who worked that line were heroes! Chuck
Twentysomething years ago anyone with a sturdy automobile and a taste for adventure (as in, more guts than brains) could drive the old Rollins Pass route, which was on the roadbed except for a few spots like Rifle Sight Notch, where it skipped the loop. I drove it from west to east, including two old trestles (solidly decked over) and the Needle's Eye tunnel (a tight fit for the old Duster.) Arrived at the bottom a few hundred yards from the Moffatt Tunnel's East portal.
That's where I saw the sign:
Road closed. Needle's Eye Tunnel impassable.
All it said on the west side was: Rough forest road. Four wheel drive recommended.
As I was bounding downgrade (the road was surfaced with baseball-size rocks) I couldn't help imagining what it would have been like dropping down that grade in the cab of a 2-6-6-0. The people who worked that line were heroes!
Chuck
The old Denver & Salt Lake (D&SL) alignment over Rollins Pass was really spectacular! Almost a constant 4% grade and really fantastic scenery.
My wife, sister-in-law and I vacationed in Colorado in September, 1977. At that time the old right-of-way was still open; all the trestles were still in tact and none of the tunnels had collapsed. We traveled it from west to east, picking it up at Winter Park. Then it was up, up and away to over 11,000 feet over Rollins Pass. The going was very slow as the old roadbed was extremely rough. All the ballest had long since disappeared and the roadway was the blasted, jagged original rail roadbed. If I remember correctly it took us about three hours to make the transit.
As I said, the scenery was absolutely fantastic. Also, I had recently bought and read the book, "The Moffat Road", and it was really neat to be travelling over the route where the D&SL went broke every winter trying to move trains. The Rollins Pass road rejoined the current ROW near East Portal.
As I recall, a couple of tunnel roofs collapsed in the 80's and, I think I read, some of the trestles have either collapsed or were deemed unsafe for vehicular traffic. It's too bad we can no longer drive the old ROW; it was really impressive.
Mike
Those are very nice photos of the DN&P. I hiked up that old roadbed of that line once in the 1970s from the east end of Moffat Tunnel. There was a rectangular box water tank ruins on the edge of the roadbed a couple miles up there. There were also a couple of large trestle ruins lying in the valleys on the way up to where the tank was. It was a very inviting roadbed to explore back then, but I have no idea what it is like today. I have never been to Yankee Doodle Lake. The photograph of it is just gorgeous. Does anybody know what it is like there today? Does it look like it did when the photo was taken?
Deggesty The diagram in the first link today explains the track in the picture with the Dining Room–the grade that bothered ModelCar is main line.
The diagram in the first link today explains the track in the picture with the Dining Room–the grade that bothered ModelCar is main line.
Now we know....That was an interesting posting to the questions, including the old photos and the description of what we were looking at.
Quentin
wanswheel Johnny, the dining room was right next to Arrow depot. -- Mike http://www.ghostdepot.com/rg/images/moffat%20route/arrow%20yard%20c1910.gif http://www.ghostdepot.com/rg/mainline/moffat%20route/arrow.htm
Johnny, the dining room was right next to Arrow depot. -- Mike
http://www.ghostdepot.com/rg/images/moffat%20route/arrow%20yard%20c1910.gif
http://www.ghostdepot.com/rg/mainline/moffat%20route/arrow.htm
Mike, these two links tell us even more about a by-gone route that brought a wonderfully scenic route into being. Do many of our posters have the 2009 UP calendar–which has a fine photograph, taken in Gore Canyon, on the June page? (My wife’s comment on this section of the route: "You look straight up on one side, and straight down on the other.")
After seeing these links, I looked at the representation of the Denver and Salt Lake in the June, 1916, issue of the Guide, and found not only the passenger timetable, but also a map–and the picture of Yankee Doodle Lake, with a description of the lake and of the line!
There is the statement, "Standard Gauge. Dining Cars on through trains," but the timetable shows only one through train each way (1&2) to Craig, and they both stopped at Tabernash for meals. Trains 5&6 provided a round trip from Denver to Corona and back. Number 4 (Ex Sun) went into Denver from Tolland in the morning; #3 (Ex SatSun) returned in the evening, and #7 returned in the early afternoon on Saturday.
Now, for Yankee Doodle Lake. I cannot tell for sure, but I believe the picture in the Guide is the same one Mike posted earlier (the photographs in this reproduction of the Guide are not the best).
"Away up in the Rocky Mountains, more than ten thousand feet above the level of the sea, with its surrounding vesture of perennial snow, nestles this lovely lakelet of unfathomed depth, whose clear, flashing waters of emerald green charm the delighted vision of all beholders. The glittering rails of this marvelous railroad almost encircle it as with ribbons of steel, and just beyond sits Corona upon the Crest of the Continent."
And, about the line:
"Everything picturesque, sublime and impressive in the supreme grandeur of Rocky Mountain scenery can be viewed in comfort and safety from the luxurious trains of this railway in the Denver-Corona one day round trip. In unflagging enjoyment this brief trip has no equal in America."
"The entire line to Craig is unparalleled in scenic attractiveness."
Johnny
....Johnny, I was wondering about that too.....Regardless, starting down that grade to the left in the photo must have gotten the enigneer's attention.....Hopefully.
....Great collection of historic photos.
DeggestyThese are really excellent photographs, especially the one of Yankee Doodle Lake and the one with the tunnel portal. As I recall, the Moffat Road was not allowed to enter Denver Union Station for quite some time. Is that a switchback in the picture with the Dining Room,or a siding? Johnny
These are really excellent photographs, especially the one of Yankee Doodle Lake and the one with the tunnel portal. As I recall, the Moffat Road was not allowed to enter Denver Union Station for quite some time. Is that a switchback in the picture with the Dining Room,or a siding?
Not "not allowed." More like, "did not want to cough up the cash needed to buy in to the DUT company. Especially not for a couple of local trains a day. Presumably had the Moffat ever been completed as a through railway to Salt Lake City under its own ownership, it would have then had the passenger traffic sufficient to justify buying into the DUT. But nothing came of those plans.
wanswheel Denver, Northwestern & Pacific oldies http://photoswest.org/photos/00071501/00071617.jpg http://photoswest.org/photos/00070626/00070733.jpg http://photoswest.org/photos/00071626/00071634.jpg http://photoswest.org/photos/00071626/00071630.jpg http://photoswest.org/photos/00071001/00071104.jpg
Denver, Northwestern & Pacific oldies
http://photoswest.org/photos/00071501/00071617.jpg
http://photoswest.org/photos/00070626/00070733.jpg
http://photoswest.org/photos/00071626/00071634.jpg
http://photoswest.org/photos/00071626/00071630.jpg
http://photoswest.org/photos/00071001/00071104.jpg
First train in Moffat Tunnel 1928
http://photoswest.org/photos/11006251/11006347.jpg
http://photoswest.org/photos/11005626/11005669.jpg
http://photoswest.org/photos/11005626/11005683.jpg
Moffat Tunnel built in the 1930s you say? You missed it by a couple of years. Moffat Tunnel was completed in 1927 and the first train went through in February 1928. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moffat_Tunnel . The date of construction is on the tunnel portal. When in doubt, look it up.
beaulieu bubbajustin I was looking at Google Earth last night and I saw over the "genaral" area of the preasent day Moffat Tunnel, there were a few photo's of an "old rail line abandond in the 70's." Did UP run a line over the tunnel? Was this a short/tourist line? Thanks! Justin You may not know it, but the Union Pacific does not own the Moffat Tunnel. The tunnel is owned by the Denver Water Board, who uses the adjacent "Pioneer Tunnel" to bring water from the west side of the mountain to the east side to feed Denver's need for more water. The Pioneer Tunnel which has a smaller diameter was bored first, then connecting links were driven to excavate the larger Moffat Tunnel. The rental of the Moffat Tunnel to the railroad paid for the expense of boring the water tunnel. The tunnels were bored in the 1930's, before that the Denver & Salt Lake RR. went over the top and crossed the Front Range through Rollins Pass, well above the Moffat Tunnel. The railroad could not afford to pay for the tunnel itself. With the completion of the Moffat Tunnel the Denver &Rio Grande Western RR. leased the Denver & Salt Lake RR. in purpetuity, and built the connecting link from Orestod to Dotsero.
bubbajustin I was looking at Google Earth last night and I saw over the "genaral" area of the preasent day Moffat Tunnel, there were a few photo's of an "old rail line abandond in the 70's." Did UP run a line over the tunnel? Was this a short/tourist line? Thanks! Justin
I was looking at Google Earth last night and I saw over the "genaral" area of the preasent day Moffat Tunnel, there were a few photo's of an "old rail line abandond in the 70's." Did UP run a line over the tunnel? Was this a short/tourist line?
Thanks!
Justin
You may not know it, but the Union Pacific does not own the Moffat Tunnel. The tunnel is owned by the Denver Water Board, who uses the adjacent "Pioneer Tunnel" to bring water from the west side of the mountain to the east side to feed Denver's need for more water. The Pioneer Tunnel which has a smaller diameter was bored first, then connecting links were driven to excavate the larger Moffat Tunnel. The rental of the Moffat Tunnel to the railroad paid for the expense of boring the water tunnel. The tunnels were bored in the 1930's, before that the Denver & Salt Lake RR. went over the top and crossed the Front Range through Rollins Pass, well above the Moffat Tunnel. The railroad could not afford to pay for the tunnel itself. With the completion of the Moffat Tunnel the Denver &Rio Grande Western RR. leased the Denver & Salt Lake RR. in purpetuity, and built the connecting link from Orestod to Dotsero.
mudchicken Rollins Pass line was never narrow gage. (Between Leyden & Denver is debatable)....not only ore, but coal as well.
Rollins Pass line was never narrow gage. (Between Leyden & Denver is debatable)....not only ore, but coal as well.
Coal was the predominant freight traffic until the cut-off connection with the D&RG and completion of the Moffat tunnel..
Mark
Railway Man The Rollins Pass alignment was 2% up to the location of a proposed "short" main-range tunnel, then 4% above that point, on both sides of the pass.
The Rollins Pass alignment was 2% up to the location of a proposed "short" main-range tunnel, then 4% above that point, on both sides of the pass.
The 2-6-6-0 (originally 0-6-6-0) Mallets were capable of pulling 20 loads on the 2 percent grades, and 8 to 10 loads at 5 to 10 miles per hour on the 4 percent grades.
Railway Man Needle's Eye was not intended to be a tunnel that remained in service for more than a few years. Over time the rock has weathered because now it's exposed to freeze-thaw cycles and oxidation, and that's the result of the rock falls. It would be simple enough to use rock bolts and reinforced shotcrete to keep loose rock from occasionally falling off the arch, but that gets into a loss of historical character and may run afoul of National Historic Preservation Act. Also, tunnel repairs can never create zero-risk outcomes, there's always some risk and since this isn't a necessary route of commerce, nor a public necessity to have the tunnel open, the government agencies that could take it on are reluctant to expose themselves to a lot of liability.
Needle's Eye was not intended to be a tunnel that remained in service for more than a few years. Over time the rock has weathered because now it's exposed to freeze-thaw cycles and oxidation, and that's the result of the rock falls. It would be simple enough to use rock bolts and reinforced shotcrete to keep loose rock from occasionally falling off the arch, but that gets into a loss of historical character and may run afoul of National Historic Preservation Act. Also, tunnel repairs can never create zero-risk outcomes, there's always some risk and since this isn't a necessary route of commerce, nor a public necessity to have the tunnel open, the government agencies that could take it on are reluctant to expose themselves to a lot of liability.
RWM:
Interesting info.....Thanks. And 4% is steep, for any railroad.
ModelcartomikawaTT As I was bounding downgrade (the road was surfaced with baseball-size rocks) I couldn't help imagining what it would have been like dropping down that grade in the cab of a 2-6-6-0. The people who worked that line were heroes! Do you know just what the grade was......How steep. And was the tunnel lined or just solid rock interior.....? How long of a tunnel....? That must have been a bit apprehensive, coming thru it.
tomikawaTT As I was bounding downgrade (the road was surfaced with baseball-size rocks) I couldn't help imagining what it would have been like dropping down that grade in the cab of a 2-6-6-0. The people who worked that line were heroes!
Do you know just what the grade was......How steep. And was the tunnel lined or just solid rock interior.....? How long of a tunnel....? That must have been a bit apprehensive, coming thru it.
The Rollins Pass alignment was 2% up to the location of a proposed "short" main-range tunnel, then 4% above that point, on both sides of the pass. There were three tunnels on the pass -- Ladora, Needle's Eye, and Ranch Creek Loop. Needle's Eye was cut through reasonably competent rock and needed no lining. Ladora and Ranch Creek were both timber lined and have subsequently collapsed as the timber rotted out. Needle's Eye is ~250 feet long. Operating a train through it probably didn't create extra apprehension, considering how awful the rest of this line was too.
Do you know just what the grade was......How steep. And was the tunnel lined or just solid rock interior.....? How long of a tunnel....? That must have been a bit apprehension, coming thru it.
Hi all!
I now remember that there was such a thing called Rollins Pass. DUHHHH.. What am I thinking??? I see now. Thank you all for jaring my memory! I also thank you for telling me that the Moffat Tunnel is owened by the water board. I did not know that. Thank you all!
Justin - You are looking at the handiwork of Louis Blauvelt, Horace Sumner, JJ Argo and a bunch of other folks working for Moffat's Denver, NorthWestern & Pacific...See if you can find a copy of Rails That Climb (Edward Bollinger, CRRM-1979)on interlibrary loan.
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