AAR "Indicators of Terrorism"

[Soo2610]

Ron. I agree. Have never had a problem as long as I stayed off private property and the right of way. Strongly agree with you about the Bozos. Have watched a few of them at Rochelle setting up their tripods in the middle of the diamond or on the main to get a shot of an approaching train. Also watched a pickup truck just barely avoid being hit by a BNSF in Rochelle when he went around the gates in front of a stopped train and just missed being nailed by an intermodal express passing on the second track.

[Anonymous]

I had been railfanning the local area for several years in a small compact car, and had never been approached by anyone asking what I was up to. I'm very careful to stay off the property, and not bother the workers trying to do their jobs. A couple years ago, I traded the compact for a new Dodge Ram. I did not change my railfanning routine in any way. I still went to the same spots at about the same time on certain days (My days off), used the same cameras etc. The only change was my vehicle. Within about a month of getting the truck I was challenged twice by employees wanting to know what I was up to, and if I was a company spy, a union spy or what. I explained that I was just another "Train nut" with a camera. Since then, I have not been challenged again and in fact, now when I'm out railfanning, The crews are always good for a couple toots of the horn, a wave and if conditions are right they will give me some really good "Stack Talk".

As Terry said above, a few Bozo's can spoil it for all of us. If you are up front with the Railroaders and stay out of their way, we can coexist just fine.

One additional thing I've done since 9-11 is to program the BNSF emergency number into my cell phone speed dial so I can report suspicious people or or equipment problems to the railroad fast. Ron.

[BRAKIE]

Terry:It is bozos like that that causes the railroads to say railfans are not wecome,this goes for the short lines also.More and more the railroads are getting less friendly toward railfans,for the very reasons you stated.Who can blame them??? I can remember the time when railroads was alot more friendly then they are now.

[mnwestern]

I've only been railfanning and taking train pictures since 1990, but I've come across some real idiots among the railfan fraternity. I think most of you know the ones I'm talking about — those who always trespass, pick up any loose piece of equipment and put it in their truck, brag about their builder plate collection (mostly stolen), and show off photos you know could only have been taken illegally (in tunnels, on bridges, from a top signal towers, etc.) Every one of those types have done far more damage to the railfans' reputation than any threat of terrorism. Railroads have lived with this brand of domestic terrorism for decades.
I've attend several railroad historical society conventions and you would think those attending who be the most aware of the problem and respect railroad property, and yet, that is not always the case. I remember one time when our group was bused to a small rail yard where we had railroad permission to go through the large former depot now used as a yard office. Before getting off the bus, we were told where we could and could not go. We could not cross any tracks. So what happens when the doors open — four or five of the idiots who apparently have never been to that area before and have never seen this GP39-2 or that GP28E, make a beeline across three or four tracks (in an active yard with cars on both sides) to get that picture of those engines two hundred yards away before a chorus of screaming railfans shamed them into turning around. Other times, we've been told it is a five-minute stop. So what do 10 percent of us do? They sprint off a half-mile down the tracks to get a shot of something, delaying the whole group.
So if the rest of us get hassled by railroad and civilian police, we have those black sheep railfans to blame more than bin Laden. Like in any segment of the population, you are always going to have X amount of idiots, thieves and inconsiderate people. Even among railfans.
T

[Anonymous]

Gee, looking at all the indicators, my brother, father and myself have (and will continue to have) police check us over every time we go to watch trains at our favorite public grade crosing in Milwaukee. We've had MPD slow down every time they come by us. After seeing us there after their second or third pass in the span of two hours, they get the hint and stop slowing down. They must think that we are really stange to be there at a grade crossing from 9 until midnight (or later) watching trains.

[Anonymous]

I agree with the posts that said that if we change our lifestyle that the terrorists win.

For me personaly I do about 75% of my railfanning along Norfolk Southern's tracks. Since they are so tight on security anyway I always am very sure that where I'm watching from is public areas. So if you are in public areas I don't see as how there is much they can do. Sure someone could call the local cops but it gets back to the same thing if its public areas what can they do? They can't arrest you for taking a picture. I do belive that that would be a violation of my First Ammendmant rights. As photographers aren't we part of the press.

I saw a commercial the other day where various people were filmed saying things like "I will fight terrorism by going shopping or going to work" or similar day to day things like that. Well we need to say that"I will fight terrorism by going train watching." Refuse to live in fear or else they win.

[Anonymous]

Terrorists are seldom seen.
They lurk in the shadows.
They do not call in bomb threats, the bomb just goes off.
I doubt they would be standing at a grade crossing or wherever taking photos.
Suspicious activity in unusual places warrents the cops of course.
But, if we behave as good railfans should, no one should be hassling us.
A friendly wave always helps too. :)

[Anonymous]

Peter, I fully agree with you. However, most railroad management types I've run across over the years don't want to be bothered with railfans period. Even before the mess of Sept. 11, some major railroads considered us to be a notch above terrorists. Granted the majority of us are respectful of railroad property but those few that aren't....well. Another thing to take into consideration is the John Q. Public with a cell phone calling the local polza about terrorists with cameras and camcorders down by the railroad.

Do you remember someone writing a commentary in Trains magazine, about 10 years ago, on the idea of establishing a national system of I.D. cards for railfans with the railroads (or AAR)? I always thought it was a good idea, but with manpower on the railroads cut back there would be no practical way of running such a system. Again, nobody at the management level wanted to bother.

[Anonymous]

I have to say first that I am dead against all this tresspassing nonsense. It makes good sense for the Railroad companies and Police to have "powers" of arrest on the Railroad property although the Police have those powers anywhere. If you tresspass on the railroad and get killed then that cannot be the fault of the railroad, people have to take responsibility for their own actions unless not judged old enough or mentally able.

I cannot see any good reason to evict / arrest any railfan engaging in their hobby on areas of railroad property that are not immedietly dangerous without it being a waste of police resources. (by immedietly, I mean hanging about actually on the track)

If these "Indicators of terrorism", and they are really just indicators as to how potential terrorists MIGHT behave, are used to harrass every railfan who exhibits one or more of these charecteristics, then how much of a waste of police resource will that be?

There are a limited number of Railroad police as well as normal police who will all be kept quite busy enough by the changed security situation. Would it not make far better sense to use the thousands of railfans as extra eyes and ears to guard the Railroad by giving them easy access to contact the police if their suspicions are arroused.

If you were hanging about by the railroad wanting to do some damage, woukd you put your car in a position where you can see up and down the line waiting for the next train engineer to call you in to the police or would you be a bit more secretive? Conversely, if you are out by the railroad, possibly staying in the same location for a couple of hours, I would suggest that you might notice someone hanging about who was not a railfan. Also, a lot of railfans have their favoured locations local to where they live and will possibly spot a stranger. Most of us go and have a chat with other railfans, whether they are known to us or not, you can tell if their not really into it.

It's time someone realized that railfans have nothing but the best interests of the railroads at heart.

I realize that keeping a watchfull eye on the railroads as a railfan does not give me any "right to be there" but I do see railfans as a huge assistance to the safety of the railroads. I would have no hesitation in alerting the police to and suspicious persons on the railroad before September 11th anyhow. Sorry if I've gone on a bit but I feel very strongly about this.

[thirdrail1]

The ASLRRA placed this in their "Views and News", which is the Association's weekly newsletter for its members. I can only assume that the AAR asked that they inform their members. The newsletter is now published on the web rather than mailed. I read it every week because I am retired from a short line.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

After thinking some more about the "indicators of terrorism" I wonder if this isn't a hoax? This accurately portrays many aspects of railfan behavior for years, and profiles of unacceptable behavior regardless of who prepares them would be closely held, they would not be out on the internet for all to read. At first glance these "indicators of terrorism" seem credible, but would responsible organizations such as the AAR or the ASLRA publicize something that should be closely held?

[Anonymous]

FREEDOM

It's slowly being eroded away. The list the AAR made sounds like profiling to me. It's exactly like police pulling over young, black males driving alone in certain types of cars in Miami.

Profiling is not legal policing practices. Railroads can do it because they are free to: they are not government agents. Police are government agents and if they profile there will be legal repercussions. As long as I'm on public property and do not commit any harm to the railroad, or anything else for that matter, there should be no reason to be arrested. I can see some Supreme Court cases coming about because of this.

To use an example of what I mean by public areas: a person is free to park their car on the side of the street of any neighborhood that does not have no parking signs. Sometimes residents will get mad at someone who parked in front of their house and tell the driver to move their car. The driver can always respond with "this is a public street and I'm entitled to park where I want," so long as it dosen't block a driveway.

Now the AAR wants to ban train watching, train pacing, the way we dress, the way we look, etc. They consider this suspicious? THIS TYPE OF ACTIVITY HAS BEEN OCURRING FOR DECADES! It's no longer a suspicious activity! Weird, yes, in some people's mind, but not uncomman.

The AAR list aslo brings up the question: Is BNSF going to continue to promote the Microsoft's Train Simulator's Featured Locomotive hunt? Are they going to set a trap? Drop the hunt? Or drop the AAR's ludicrous profiling scheme? And is Microsoft going to pull train simulator off the shelf because this might teach terrorists to cra***rains into Union Station? Oh, wait, I forgot about the movie Silver Streak. Remember how mush fear that instilled on everyone? (In case you can't tell, I was being ludicrous to prove a point). All I'm saying is watch out for the double-edged sword called hypocracy.

I agree with Paul W. If we have to change our way of life, the normalcy, then the terrorist will have won. I have always been a proud, flag-waving patriot of the USA before the attacks and always will be. I have always been a railfan and will continue to watch trains in the same manner as I have before the attacks. I won't trespass, but, even in the past I have always realized the risks of trespassing.

America will survive because we're Americans. Have faith. Have will power. We'll conquor the terrorits. As Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. once said, "If the mountains and oceans can be overcome, then certainly anything man-made can be overcome," when talking about Nazi fortifications.
Bin Laden's not going to curtail my railfaning activities and you shouldn't let him either.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

According to the Trains News Wire of october 22 nobody is sure whether the 'Indicators of Terrorism" list is a draft or the final version. I hope it is a draft because some of the indicators are ludicrous. For example people showing up immediately prior to a train arriving, and departing immediately [after] it leaves. These could be railfans in hot pursuit of a train with an exotic locomotive.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

According to the Trains News Wire of october 22 nobody is sure whether the 'Indicators of Terrorism" list is a draft or the final version. I hope it is a draft because some of the indicators are ludicrous. For example people showing up immediately prior to a train arriving, and departing immediately [after] it leaves. These could be railfans in hot pursuit of a train with an exotic locomotive.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

According to the Trains News Wire of october 22 nobody is sure whether the 'Indicators of Terrorism" list is a draft or the final version. I hope it is a draft because some of the indicators are ludicrous. For example people showing up immediately prior to a train arriving, and departing immediately [after] it leaves. These could be railfans in hot pursuit of a train with an exotic locomotive.

[thirdrail1]

Paul, the "Cherry Hill Brakemen" must have learned their trade from the group that worked the Bay Ridge Branch in Brooklyn when it was run by PRR and then PC. It got so bad PC had to use a helicopter flying over the train to keep the ^&%$($$% away! There was a bridge on the Shaker Rapid in Cleveland where the motormen ducked under the da***o avoid the "rockers", so that problem has been around a while in a number of cities.

[PaulWWoodring]

Yeah, a lot of those descriptions could match normal railfan activities, but I think most railroaders can tell the difference. The killjoy T&E employees who don't like the fans in any event might take this opportunity to try and get them away from the tracks. The biggest problems I face in train service are the youthful vandals and thieves in the Baltimore and Philadelphia ("the city that mugs you back") that rock or shoot at trains and try to derail us or throw us into emergency by putting debris on the tracks. There are a bunch of them near Curtis Bay in Baltimore known as the "Cherry Hill Brakemen" - named for the housing project they live in - who can close angle cocks, cut a train, set hand brakes, and rob it before you realize what's happening.

I also question the judgement of whoever at this website allowed an ad to be placed offering for sale "Authentic Amtrak Police Badges", during these times, or any times, since there are always jerks on a power trip who would use them for the wrong purposes.

Since the attacks, I still see fans out taking pictures, and at points of public access nobody has said anything. There is a greater danger from those who don't know anything about railroads that cut across the tracks in front of trains. I refuse to live my life in fear, for that means the terrorists win.

[thirdrail1]

That wasn't "rumblings" - what I posted was furnished to The American Short Line & Regional Railroad Association by the Association of American Railroads and posted on the ASLRRA's website for use of its member railroads.

[Anonymous]

I've heard similar rumblings from sources in UP. They report that you'd better have a railroad related identification if you're seen taking photos or videos along the ROW, even if you're not on railroad property. No ID equals a trip with the local polza to jail. Sounds to me like an all out effort to squash railfans.

[thirdrail1]

The Association of American Railroads (AAR) is putting together a list of "indicators of Terrorism" to help railroad employees increase awareness of suspicious activities on railroad properties. Employees are encouraged to look for:

*25-35 year old males extremely interested in specific railroads and resources.

*People soliciting detailed railroad information in casual situations.

*People showing up immediately prior to a train arriving and departing immediately it leaves.

*People who are in the wrong place or dressed inappropriately along the rail line.

*Suspicious vehicles, motorcycles, or mopeds at crossings and along right-of-way.

*Automobiles that move with you along your route.

*Unusual occurences like disconnected brake hoses and abnormal signals.

----If any of the above describe you or your railfanning activities, be forewarned.----