UP: To big for it's own Britches?

[Anonymous]

It seems Union pacific has been having Lot's of problems as of late, Several Collisions with other trains in the last few months, Numerous derailments and other problems.

So that begs the question, has UP gotten to the point where they're just to big? does it seem like the time is ripe for the Government to step in and force a split up?

If they continue on this trend of accidents, one can only conclude that the've gotten to big and would probably benifit from a split. Hopefully they can wake up before someone dies and get their acts together before the Government decided their fate for them.

Jay

[Anonymous]

Statistically UP has had less accidents this year per mile operated than last year (at least as of 3 weeks ago.)

The accidents and derailments have been at more visible points this year and because of service issues are causing bigger problems.

That being said, UP mgt made a big, big mistake a year ago from a staffing standpoint (crews) and I can't believe some senior heads haven't rolled over that issue.

Perhaps when their 1st qtr earnings are announced, someone will pay for it then. Another analyst report came out today lowering earnings per share expectations by about 15%.

[Anonymous]

If you think they are big now, just wait 'till they take over CSX -- that's right I've been hearing the rumors.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by macguy

If you think they are big now, just wait 'till they take over CSX -- that's right I've been hearing the rumors.

There was another thread about that "rumor". So far it has not come true. That doesn't mean it won't, it just hasn't yet.

Time will tell.

[edblysard]

I am not sure that the concept of " your not doing so good" is a valid reason for the US Goverment to interfere with any non goverment business.
What would splitting UP up accomplish?
And how do you think they would go about it?

Ed

[Mookie]

ahem...BNSF will buy UP and the whole problem will be moot. [}:)]

Snickers...

[Anonymous]

There was a really good article in Trains about a possible UP meltdown going on. Had a picture of a single unit freight caught up on Cajon pass in a siding for 24 hours.
I doubt that UP is going to go anywhere anytime soon. My guess is that they've been caught by the economic upturn and lack of people. I wonder how long it will take them to sort it out?
Erik

[JoeKoh]

UP has enough problems to solve.they definately dont need to take on CSX as well
stay safe
Joe

[daveklepper]

Too many years of defeatist mentality prevented too many railroad executives from realizing than downsizing has to be replaced by increasing capacity and going after business And using human beings most effectively rather than laying them off at the slightest downturn. I've seen Norfolk Southern criticized for being unfriendly to railfans, but they sure do try their best to keep their promises to Amtrak as well as their shippers, they agressively go after business, they spur technical inovation, and their maintenance is good. Maybe UP should take lessons from them? Dave Klepper

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

I am not sure that the concept of " your not doing so good" is a valid reason for the US Goverment to interfere with any non goverment business.

Actually Ed, all the governement has to prove is that UP is violating the Anti-Trust Laws enough to justify a forced dissolution, all they need is an excuse to start the process and " your not doing so good" could be the catalyst, especially if a life is lost due to their neglect.

I truely belive UP has hit the threshold of mergers, I highly doubt they could merge again without being slapped with an Antitrust violation suit. It wouldn't suprise me if the Governement stepped in soon and forced them to disolve SP back as an independant company.

Jay

[Anonymous]

The "Surfboard" and it former agency have allowed the "merger mania" to get out of hand. With mergers come: loss of railroad jobs, towns that were once served by rail lossing that rail service, rail lines abandoned, and a great loss of regional pride. Local and regional dispatching centers were replaced by "national" dispatching centers that were out of touch with the local reality. Do mergers really improve anything at all? Look at Conrail. A railroad that made money and seemed to be well managed, now gone, and divided into 2 other railroads. One of them seems to be do ok, while the other one is failing miserably. In my opinion the country would have been better off had Conrail and Southern Pacific merged. Conrail might have lost its name but few, if any, railroad jobs would have been lost and most operations of Conrail would have continued as normal. That might have kept SP out of UP and UP would have sought either CSX or NS as a merger partner.

Is UP too big for its own britches? Yes.

Is BNSF too big for its own britches? Yes (However BNSF does seem to be doing a better job of managing its railroad than UP is doing.)

In my opinion "merger mania" was a big mistake. It has created nothing but a monster which doesn't seem to know what the left hand is doing while the right hand is just "hanging around".

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NTDN

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

I am not sure that the concept of " your not doing so good" is a valid reason for the US Goverment to interfere with any non goverment business.

Actually Ed, all the governement has to prove is that UP is violating the Anti-Trust Laws enough to justify a forced dissolution, all they need is an excuse to start the process and " your not doing so good" could be the catalyst, especially if a life is lost due to their neglect.

I truely belive UP has hit the threshold of mergers, I highly doubt they could merge again without being slapped with an Antitrust violation suit. It wouldn't suprise me if the Governement stepped in soon and forced them to disolve SP back as an independant company.

Jay

That would start something that also might get out of hand. If UP is forced to rid itself of SP then NS and CSX should return Conrail. Then BN should be forced to give back SF, and CN should give back IC. That would also start a chain of CNW, MP, and tons of other once proud Class 1s thinking of independence once again. BN could be forced to return to pre GN, NP, and C B & Q days. Where would it all stop?

Merger mania was a mistake. Would breaking up the large railroads into their original members undo that mistake?

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Breaking up the Big 4 carriers is not necessarily a solution. Many of the historic component parts don't really exist any more, especially on the former Conrail. Smaller does not necessarily mean better if the management isn't up to par.

Breaking up the Big 4 based on antitrust considerations would be difficult since the burden of proof would be on the plaintiff to show a combination in restraint of trade. I don't think that poor management would fall in that category.

Lack of capacity appears to be a looming problem for all modes of transportation, not just railroading.

[pmsteamman]

I dont think UP is too big for its briches, I think the management just dont have a clue, and its not just UP either. The railroads are not run by railroaders anymore. "Back in the day" all the mangers started out throwing switches or fireing a loco, and knew how the things worked. Now they dont the first clue. I have had our General Manger ride the loco with me on a 120 car loaded autorack train with one SD40-2 and wonder outloud why we only going 20mph when we were authorized 45mph, and when I tried to explain that a 30 year old locomotive was being pushed to a near breaking point he pulls out the tonage rating and says "this says it can pull it". [banghead]
As for crew issues, thats another hornets nest. When CSX took over Conrail crews were run to the max. We would spend well over 12 hours on the train and 10 hours at home, great on payday, but hell on the body. Now CSX has a policy that if I mark off after 7pm on thursday till 8am on monday I can be givin time off. Crews cant be asked to just give up their life and abandon their families, and thats just what the ALL the major railroads are asking their employees to do. Its not just UP its the industry, it all needs a makeover.

[CShaveRR]

I just got out of a meeting in which our atrocious numbers for USES compliance and terminal dwell tme were discussed (this is UP). When you crunch the numbers, Chicago's about as bad as the rest of the system, and worse in some respects. But here, at least, we can see evidence of what's going on with some of our connecting railroads. Basically, CSX and CN are no better off--and probably worse off--than we are (at least around here). Quite often the connections' inability to take their trains from us impacts our numbers...and thanks to creative methods of holding us off, they come out smelling like a rose, at least comparatively.

As for the derailments, sure, we have 'em. If there's such a thing as a derailment season, it would be spring. And to have twice as many derailments as railroads half our size, well Duh!, that's life. All in all, they seem to do a good job of maintaining the tracks that need it. I'm saying this after taking a vacation during which we encountered track gangs in several UP locations, and observing the condition of some other railroads' track (don't worry, Jen, I didn't notice anything disastrous in Lincoln!). I don't see how breaking up the railroad into two or more pieces (and dividing the maintenance budget accordingly) would accomplish anything.

[edblysard]

Jay,
SP\wasnt a railroad anymore, it was a dieing old monster, and a example of how to kill a business.
Ten year old slow orders, locomotives that, when they ran, were almost invisible at night due to the filth on the outside of the motor.
Cars that dissapeared for months, only to show up on the other side of the US.
Employees who routinly made 12 hours plus, 8 straight, 4 overtime, and a few hours dead head on trains that never moved forward a foot.
Some never left the yard they were built in, and the crews were forgotten, for hours on end.

Anti trust laws?

How did buying SP, rebuilding thousands of miles of track, repairing locomotives, some which hadnt had a bath since they left EMDs factory, capturing customers that had left railroads for trucks, and pretty much fixing the horrid mess SP had become fall under anti trust laws.

Someone had to rescue SP from itself, Santa Fe tried, but dissapeared into BN, the mega merger king.

Count on this, the last thing the US Goverment wants is SP to be reborn in any shape, form or fashion.

The FRA had inspectors based in Houston, who didnt even bother to go look at SP tracks in the last years, there was no need to, SP couldnt afford to repair or rebuild most of them, the FRA guys just re issued the slow orders on a regular basis.

I have been in some of the old SP yards, right after the UP took over.

Why the cars didnt just fall off the rail all by themselves is a mystery, tracks are supposed to have ties under them, and spikes, at least more than one per tie plate.

Trust me, UP buying SP saved more jobs than not buying it would have.

If Uncle Pete hadnt bought them, they would have closed shop in the next year, they had no business left to pursue, were out of cash/capital, no infrastructure left that wasnt pretty much bad ordered, and employees, from management on down, who didnt care anymore, so long as the pay check showed up, which might not have happened much longer.

As long as BNSF exsist, there is compitition out west, the surfboard made sure of that, just look at the joint Spring dispatching center, a joint UP/BNSF center, that handles all rail traffic in and around Houston and southeast Texas, and the trackage rights both enjoy on each other tracks.

UP is going to fix the problem, and it inst just limited to them, BNSF is hireing, so are a lot of local regional roads.

No one expected the 30/60 contract would generat such a big shortage on people.

Yes, the railroads did cut manpower back to the bone, and beyond in some areas, so they are responsible for a great deal of the shortage, by their own doing, but breaking up any railroad right now would pretty much do in both companies.

In six months, you will see UP right back on top of it all, they have been at this for a long time.

BNSF aint going anywhere either, they and UP have it pretty good out west, they are the RAILROAD where ever they go.

Ed

[Anonymous]

Did you say at least one spike per tie plate? KCS only has one spike in each plate on their Roodhouse-Godfrey line- they even have rail with "Made 1947" on them. Isn't that a little overdue for an upgrading?

[Anonymous]

While were on this kinda subject.

I would love to See CSX and NS give back conrail.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csx-dispatcher

While were on this kinda subject.

I would love to See CSX and NS give back conrail.

Trust me, many people would love to see Conrail run again.

[daveklepper]

I think the UP will make it back up to success. Breaking it up now would simply create more problems, including loss of scale of economies in purchasing and maintenance, new run-through agreements necessary, less efficient use of people, etc. Those of you who work for Uncle Pete, no matter how badly you feel you are being treated, can help yourselves as well as the industry by making constructive suggestions to the right people at the right times . But instead of just recommending something, sometimes it is better to ask questions:

What would happen if we did........?
Have you or anyone ever considered........?
What is your opinion..........?

etc.

Also, sometimes it is a better path to success to provide two solutions to a problem instead of just one so the boss feels he is making a decision. Dave Klepper

[pmsteamman]

Dave, what happens if it falls on deaf ears?

[jeffhergert]

There was a rumor going around, supposedly also a story in the Omaha World Herald, that Union Pacific put off 4th quarter hiring until after Jan 1 of this year so the financial numbers would look better and the top guys would would get bigger bonuses.

[Anonymous]

It's a fact--you can't spell "stupid" without a UP. How about some new slogans? "We Can't Handle It", or "We Won't Deliver". "Buliding America" my @$$. What a bunch of arrogant, head in the clouds managers they have at that trainwreck.

[Anonymous]

............................................................[:D][#dots][zzz]

[Anonymous]

Is there anysign of this UP backlog clearing up anytime soon....

Where is it worst, Fortworth, TX area?

[Anonymous]

I visited southern Arizona in March and saw first-hand the meltdown that TRAINS reported in its most recent article. The number of trains stacked headed west and east on either side of Tucson was amazing---up to 20 at one count. I finally saw a stack train at speed headed eastbound through Wilcox (notable for its historic station and the great BBQ place in a train car next to the tracks). Good thing that SP and now UP want to continue to reduce track capacity by downgrading the line west of Phoenix which could help to alleviate some of the headaches---IF UP really wanted to run the trains. UP has always been overrated and their rapid abandonments and considered abandonments of ex-MP and ex-DRG&W lines again proves their short-term vision. [:(][:(]

[eastside]

Personally, I have nothing to add regarding UP, but note that not everyone is so pessimistic for the long term:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_22/b3885159_mz027.htm

[UPTRAIN]

I hope they don't take over CSX, we don't need their problems to go with ours!!!

[Anonymous]

UPRR has gotten sloppy, complacent if you will. They are a great RR and I am sure that they are aware of their problems, and will respond accordingly. Government involvement is not an option. Conversely the CSX is not a great RR, and would create monumental problems for the UPRR in the event of a takeover.

[daveklepper]

Keep looking 'till you find the right person with a brain between them! Dave