I think the local Rockford, IL newspaper is doing a reasonably good job reporting this story. And for me to say anything that is not negative about "The Media" is unusual. They're reporting the facts, making them understandable, and not slinging any mud.
http://www.rrstar.com/cherryvalley/x135720358/Train-derails-Crew-was-reporting-high-water-as-cars-left-track
The line about the water causing the cars to "loose their grip" on the track is questionable, but who knows. Maybe the water just came up quckly over the track as the train passed. It's possible.
It was a terrible wreck. One poor woman died from the fire. Others are burned badly. A terrible thing indeed.
Im lost, I think both we, and most important, the NTSB will know more within a week, maybe two. The Black Box readout will tell all. Lets not blame the train crew.
Who said the train was at Track Speed?
Who said the standing water was over the rails or even the ties?
Why did the 60th car derail? (Remember the locomotives pulled 60 cars clear.)
Broken wheel? Broken rail joint? Ballast failure?
You can not pump Ethenol through steel piplines, Ethenal soaks up water, that makes it Rail or filling the Interstates Highways with stainless steel Tank Trucks.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
Chris30 mudchicken Chris30You have a a train loaded with flamable chemicals approaching an area where the track conditions are questionable due to weather related issues and nobody at CN thinks twice about? Tick, tick, tick Hope you never encounter the CN roadmaster or his motor track inspectors... Ok, now that's funny... I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. It isn't just about the roadmaster or the track inspectors, but I really appreciate the bounty on my head. There could be another seperate reason that this train derailed but the weather and possible standing water on the tracks appear to be the focus right now. We'll just have to wait and see. I don't know what procedures the CN track inspectors in this area took to check for water / storm related issues to the ROW in the hours, or days, leading up to this derailment. Mudchicken, what is the normal procedure, if there is one? Thanks, CC
mudchicken Chris30You have a a train loaded with flamable chemicals approaching an area where the track conditions are questionable due to weather related issues and nobody at CN thinks twice about? Tick, tick, tick Hope you never encounter the CN roadmaster or his motor track inspectors...
Chris30You have a a train loaded with flamable chemicals approaching an area where the track conditions are questionable due to weather related issues and nobody at CN thinks twice about? Tick, tick, tick
Hope you never encounter the CN roadmaster or his motor track inspectors...
Ok, now that's funny... I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. It isn't just about the roadmaster or the track inspectors, but I really appreciate the bounty on my head. There could be another seperate reason that this train derailed but the weather and possible standing water on the tracks appear to be the focus right now. We'll just have to wait and see. I don't know what procedures the CN track inspectors in this area took to check for water / storm related issues to the ROW in the hours, or days, leading up to this derailment. Mudchicken, what is the normal procedure, if there is one?
Thanks,
CC
I cannot think of a Class 1 or Class 2 that won't turn their motor track forces loose in the case of bad storm events, especially with severe rain/hail/tornadic/thunderstorm events. Every Class 1 and an awfull lot of the Class 2's pay to have private weather forecasting and weather doppler radar firms hardwired into their dispatcher/operations stations to alert them to railroad specific conditions. FRA Part 213 track inspection regs call for inspections (loosely, there are far too many variables) during severe weather events.
With the big ex-IC headquarters at Homewood with some of the DS functions there, I'm sure they were calling out the troops after hours to look at the tracks and patrol for water problems. I'm wondering if the train crew got ambushed by wet conditions and/or water over the track that they did not expect. Most places, if you see water over the track you need to be down to restricted speed or slower to protect your traction motors and the loss of the slight co-efficient of traction for braking that you do have. Every trackman knows that ma nature is an unpredictable, cranky old gal (the forum adm. software won't let the actual phrase be used), so local folks hit by the storm see the the storm and head out regardless if the DS calls or not. I had a case in the early 1990's during a cloudburst where a track supervisor went over a wash with some water, Amtrak following the TS on his blocks saw water in the ditch and 20 minutes later the bridge was gone after 7 inches of water with hail in 30 minutes.
Any operating guy/ DS worth his salt will put the track inspectors out there and slow down whatever trains in the neighborhood, IF they get indications of unusual conditions . Even the Class 3's will put out a motor track inspector in front of the next train following a weather event. I took it, and I would expect CN's roadmaster et al took the comment, as an unwarranted blanket cheap shot.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
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Limitedclear CHERRY VALLEY,IL: 6TH ALARM, TRAIN DERAILMENT AT HARRISON & MULFORD. REPORTED AS 14 RAIL CARS CARRYING ETHANOL DERAILED & ON FIRE. EVACUATION OF ENTIRE AREA IN PROGRESS [23:37] UPDATE- 1/2 MILE+ EVACS IN PLACE. 3 VICTIMS TRANSPORTED, 2 VERY CRITICAL. COMMAND LETTINNG PRODUCT BURN ITSELF OUT. ALL COMPANIESS WORKING. SPECIAL CALLED 4 HELOS. [03:26,CHGO] Ultimately 26 fire companies responded...
CHERRY VALLEY,IL: 6TH ALARM, TRAIN DERAILMENT AT HARRISON & MULFORD. REPORTED AS 14 RAIL CARS CARRYING ETHANOL DERAILED & ON FIRE. EVACUATION OF ENTIRE AREA IN PROGRESS [23:37] UPDATE- 1/2 MILE+ EVACS IN PLACE. 3 VICTIMS TRANSPORTED, 2 VERY CRITICAL. COMMAND LETTINNG PRODUCT BURN ITSELF OUT. ALL COMPANIESS WORKING. SPECIAL CALLED 4 HELOS. [03:26,CHGO]
Ultimately 26 fire companies responded...
Did that come through Firenet?
I'm just getting in on the conversation.
The way I see it, A train is VERY VERY heavy. A typical railroad wheele is heavier, and fairly thinner comared to a automobile wheele. I just don't think that a train would hydroplain. maby one of you could disprove me, but for now, I'm not convinced. Also, what is the train crew doing? I'm not trying to jump down the engineers throat here, or trying to pretend I know it all. I have offically logged 0.00 hours in an actual locomotive running it. If the witnesses are correct, then the locomotives would have had to blast through the water, soaking the TM's and most likley causing a short out. SURLEY the engineer was slowing down when he saw the standing water, unless the train was running in reverse at trackspeed, or at least trying to slow the trains speed after going through the water depending on how soon he saw it.
What I think happend, is that the standing water washed out the tracks or made them very unstable. Then the train came at trackspeed and the loco's got over the pool of water w/o shorting out the traction motors and then the cars proceeded to come off the tracks giving the illousion of the train hydroplaining. Now, if I have made any misstatements please let me know. If I have said anything that isn't possible, let me know by all means. Sorry if I offended anyone. Also did the crew use the same loco's to remove the cars that weren't burning? How did the locomotives not have shorted out traction motors?
Thanks for any corrections, and answers!
Justin
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
tree68 Kinda give lie to the thread entitled "The case for shipping ethanol by rail," I'd say.
Kinda give lie to the thread entitled "The case for shipping ethanol by rail," I'd say.
Yes, I thought that was interesting timing.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
As long as the rails remain connected to each other the circuit is complete, the water isn't a good enough jumper to short the circuit and turn the signals red.
This is a bad one. Here's some video...
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/1632033,w-rockford-derailment-train-blow-up-062009.article
Seems that the train was running through standing water over the rails. Not a good idea. I don't know how fast the water came up or when the line was inspected after the heavy rains.
My question: I believe the line has ABS. In that case why wouldn't the water have shunted the circuit and caused the signals to go red?
There are obviously things that I don't know, but right now it seems that there is nothing for the railroad to do here except admit their responsibility, sincerly apologize to the injured and bereaved, and write some checks.
Looking at the likely area on Bing Maps (formerly Microsoft Live) and using aerial and Bird's Eye views you can see that the area is a likely troublespot following heavy rains. You have a meandering creek on the south side of CN's tracks right alongside the subgrade and you have a small deck bridge west of S. Mulford Rd. grade crossing, where the creek crosses from the north side of the CN. There are several small ponds visible in the immediate area of the tracks and it looks like low ground.
Plug in S. Mulford Road, Rockford, Illinois 61109 to see the area, the UP branch is in the area but a little further north.
"So, if my property lies next to RR Track, do I have a legal responsibility to concern myself with drainage that affects the tracks? ... And I know that if I change the landscaping in my yard and it causes a change to the drainage into my neighbor's yard, I can have an upset neighbor. But do I have to worry about legal recourse from this neighbor?"
The short answer, Tina, is yes. I have adjudicated a surprising number of cases of just this nature. The burden of proof is on the party claiming damage -- the neighbour -- and is rather high, but if the neighbour (or highway department or railroad or what have you) can show that something you did caused damage to them, they can collect or require you to remediate the situation, or both. Conversely, I might point out, if you can show that the highway department (usually!) did something stupid and caused damage to your property, you can collect from them -- the most common examples being culverts not cleaned out, or a nice new culvert aimed directly at your patio (don't laugh; I've seen it happen).
I have no intention of speculating on this particular accident -- except to point out that even if the geometry of the rail and wheels was such that the first few axles could hydroplane (and that is unlikely in the extreme at subsonic speeds) and if the hydroplaning forces were great enough to lift the flanges above the rail (equally unlikely) the rest of the train would not -- the water would have been long since removed from the rail head. "Hydroplaning" in the context of the witness sounds to me like a nice big word he or she heard once and applied incorrectly.
I have to admit that this one bothers me having grown up close to CN's Iowa Division in northeast Iowa during IC/ICG days. It DOES seem amiss that CN didn't have engineering service people out there monitoring the condition of mainline track in circumstances such as this; even more so that a train was doing track speed through standing water. While I'm no expert in the engineering area a la Mudchicken, it seems reasonably safe to assume that the ballast and subgrade were seriously comprised in this particular area that possibly could have been one of the lead causes of the derailment. I understand that RRs simply do not have the army of people out there in the field like they used to have but this latest incident (hopefully) will cause CN to seriously review its practices of monitoring adverse weather situations.
AgentKidBaltACDDrainage of the right of way during times of heavy rain is critical....some of the drainage the railroads control....some of it they don't. You have to have three parties all looking after their own drainage issues, the RR, the local Highway Department and adjacent private property owners. AgentKid
BaltACDDrainage of the right of way during times of heavy rain is critical....some of the drainage the railroads control....some of it they don't.
You have to have three parties all looking after their own drainage issues, the RR, the local Highway Department and adjacent private property owners.
I hadn't thought about this before. So, if my property lies next to RR Track, do I have a legal responsibility to concern myself with drainage that affects the tracks? Is this like being responsible for the home owner's associations tree that is planted between the sidewalk and the street in front of my house, but in essence belongs to the home owner's association? And I know that if I change the landscaping in my yard and it causes a change to the drainage into my neighbor's yard, I can have an upset neighbor. But do I have to worry about legal recourse from this neighbor? or the railway company in the case of yard run-off, (from watering, not from my fleet of private railway cars I keep in the back room ,) next to the tracks?
tina
zardozThe only "safe" direction for me is east, which fortunately is the prevailing wind direction in Kenosha.
The only "safe" direction for me is east, which fortunately is the prevailing wind direction in Kenosha.
Hydroplaning? Doubtful!. Locked brakes, skidding, as train is in emergency? Yeah, more like it.
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Remember CN thought that they could RUN heavy trains down 2.2% grades in Britsh Columbia without Retainers or Dynamic Brakes and with Defective Equipment. That accident cost them 2 Railroaders.
edbentonDo not LAUGH I have seen 40 tons on 18 wheels Hydroplane moving at 30 MPH
It is a matter more of the weight PSI and since the steel wheel is much more concentrated PSI not very likely to hydroplane a train. Remember when bobtailing how little weight on each tire of the drives. Depending on your tractor can be 450 - 700 pounds per tire and the tire footprint is 2" x 8". The moral of this do not ever get in front of a tractor without trailer if the pavement is wet.
When I first read on a Canadian news site about this wreck happening near a grade crossing, this was the first thing I thought of. You have to have three parties all looking after their own drainage issues, the RR, the local Highway Department and adjacent private property owners. It's always hard to get all three groups working in the same direction.
Based on many years of train watching, this isn't the first submerged grade crossing I've seen or heard about. But fortunately for me the ones I've seen have been on mostly little used yard trackage.
AgentKid
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
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Chris30For all of us who make fun of the NIMBY nation I don't have any argument with them on this one because I wouldn't want a freight train to blow up in my back yard either.
I live 1/2 mile from the UP Milwaukee sub, and 1 mile from the CP C&M sub; I ALWAYS know which way the wind is blowing, just in case....
The above-mentioned tracks are to my west; to the north 1/4 mile is Ocean Spray, and 1 mile to the south is Supervalu's warehouse, both of which use ammonia in their refrigeration systems. The only "safe" direction for me is east, which fortunately is the prevailing wind direction in Kenosha.
Drainage of the right of way during times of heavy rain is critical....some of the drainage the railroads control....some of it they don't. Blocked culverts and other kinds of drainage channels off of railroad property can create serious issues. By the same token, if the railroad doesn't have it's own drainage tools working they are in trouble.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Do not LAUGH I have seen 40 tons on 18 wheels Hydroplane moving at 30 MPH. More than likely we had a HIDDEN washout that only took out the ballast and left the ties and rails intact. The train finsihed the job and took out the REST.
Chris30 From what I've read / heard, it sounds like this train was running at something close to track speed. That would be hard to believe given the amount of rain (@4 inches) in the Chicago / Rockford area yesterday (6/19) and the numerous flood warnings / watches. Did the CN check their tracks for standing water? If this train was hydroplaning, as witnesses suggested it did, then that suggests that there was a lot of standing water on the tracks. You have a a train loaded with flamable chemicals approaching an area where the track conditions are questionable due to weather related issues and nobody at CN thinks twice about? Tick, tick, tick. Also, it's going to be interesting to hear the explanation regarding the hows and whys regarding the tank cars being breached / exploding.
From what I've read / heard, it sounds like this train was running at something close to track speed. That would be hard to believe given the amount of rain (@4 inches) in the Chicago / Rockford area yesterday (6/19) and the numerous flood warnings / watches. Did the CN check their tracks for standing water? If this train was hydroplaning, as witnesses suggested it did, then that suggests that there was a lot of standing water on the tracks. You have a a train loaded with flamable chemicals approaching an area where the track conditions are questionable due to weather related issues and nobody at CN thinks twice about? Tick, tick, tick. Also, it's going to be interesting to hear the explanation regarding the hows and whys regarding the tank cars being breached / exploding.
It's ridiculous to even think the train was hydroplaning - 130 tons on narrow steel wheels are a lot different than 1.5 tons on four fat rubber tires. But if the tank cars already lost their trucks in the derailment, it is possible they gave that impression as the loose carbodies plowed through the ditch.
Steady pounding on a saturated subgrade can liquefy the soil, so I wonder if this might be the root cause. If there is a rail joint in the area, especially if it is a bit low, each car in the train will turn the soil closer to a slurry. You can often get the same result tapping your foot on wet soil next to a muddy puddle.
And why slow down the train if Hunter will have your butt for delays on his "scheduled railroad". But I am sure the blame culture is now selecting a scapegoat.
John
[edited for content by selector]
Oh this is going to go over great in Barrington... should help ease their fears about all those freight trains rumblin through their town. Don't worry the CN will say, we promise we won't blow one up in your town. For all of us who make fun of the NIMBY nation I don't have any argument with them on this one because I wouldn't want a freight train to blow up in my back yard either.
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