kbathgate BaltACD selector Please don't descend into a political "treatise" or series of them in this thread. You all know the inevitable outcome. -Crandell NIMBY is politics. So long as you have 2 people with differing ideas you have politics. Apologies for the breach of etiquette - I hadn’t though of NIMBYism as a political issue when starting the post, but rather as an exasperating social phenomenon. Also, being rude about British politicians isn’t currently seen as being controversial! (For those not up to speed with UK current affairs, there has been a huge scandal over parliamentarians’ creative expenses claims - best not to go into that, though...). Anyway, to try to re-phrase things in a less political manner, I think I was trying to make a point about the ubiquity of some degree of public opposition to rail infrastructure projects, even where the project is of acknowledged public benefit. Another current example in Scotland is the ‘Waverley Route’, through the Scottish Borders between Edinburgh and Carlisle. There was enormous local opposition to the line’s closure in 1969, and almost from day one a campaign for its reopening , which has finally resulted in a commitment from the Scottish Government to reopen the line as far south as Galashiels for passenger traffic - raising hopes of eventual complete reopening. However, significant opposition has emerged – largely from property owners along the line, but also from others who fear that the line will bring an explosion of commuter housing to their villages, and (conversely) from those who would rather the money was spent on road improvements to aid their own commutes. Despite the privatisation of British Rail (and we certainly shouldn't get into that one!) the taxpayer ultimately still pays for any new rail infrastructure in Britain, so people have a right to complain to their politicians about projects which affect them. However, if I may express a personal opinion, I think that such people deserve to have their opinions listened to, but that their opinions should not be allowed to outweigh wider benefits just because they have the loudest voices.
BaltACD selector Please don't descend into a political "treatise" or series of them in this thread. You all know the inevitable outcome. -Crandell NIMBY is politics. So long as you have 2 people with differing ideas you have politics.
selector Please don't descend into a political "treatise" or series of them in this thread. You all know the inevitable outcome. -Crandell
Please don't descend into a political "treatise" or series of them in this thread. You all know the inevitable outcome.
-Crandell
Our world, both open and closed societies are based upon politics. Once two people have differing ideas and try to convince a 3rd party the merits of their ideas you have political discussion.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Apologies for the breach of etiquette - I hadn’t though of NIMBYism as a political issue when starting the post, but rather as an exasperating social phenomenon. Also, being rude about British politicians isn’t currently seen as being controversial! (For those not up to speed with UK current affairs, there has been a huge scandal over parliamentarians’ creative expenses claims - best not to go into that, though...).
Anyway, to try to re-phrase things in a less political manner, I think I was trying to make a point about the ubiquity of some degree of public opposition to rail infrastructure projects, even where the project is of acknowledged public benefit. Another current example in Scotland is the ‘Waverley Route’, through the Scottish Borders between Edinburgh and Carlisle. There was enormous local opposition to the line’s closure in 1969, and almost from day one a campaign for its reopening , which has finally resulted in a commitment from the Scottish Government to reopen the line as far south as Galashiels for passenger traffic - raising hopes of eventual complete reopening. However, significant opposition has emerged – largely from property owners along the line, but also from others who fear that the line will bring an explosion of commuter housing to their villages, and (conversely) from those who would rather the money was spent on road improvements to aid their own commutes. Despite the privatisation of British Rail (and we certainly shouldn't get into that one!) the taxpayer ultimately still pays for any new rail infrastructure in Britain, so people have a right to complain to their politicians about projects which affect them.
However, if I may express a personal opinion, I think that such people deserve to have their opinions listened to, but that their opinions should not be allowed to outweigh wider benefits just because they have the loudest voices.
This reminds me of the former Katy ROW that runs through New Braunfels, TX. Everyone ASSUMED the UP had abandoned that grade, but they simply mothballed it for many years. Ranchers and farmers built fences across it, some removed the rail in spots for their access roads, and Shlitterbahn (a large waterpark in town) even built a parking lot for their employees right on top of the ROW. Then the UP decided to re-hab the line to help alleviate congestion between Austin and San Antonio, and boy did some folks get in an uproar about it!!! I suppose a lot of folks assumed they "inherited" the property since the railroad "abandonded" it.
I don't know if any individual or groups tried to stop the UP from using their property for its intended purpose, but with the speed that the they re-habilitated the line, I don't know if anyone had any time to.
blownout cylinder BaltACD selector Please don't descend into a political "treatise" or series of them in this thread. You all know the inevitable outcome. -Crandell NIMBY is politics. So long as you have 2 people with differing ideas you have politics. But there are ways one can have a politics without strife. I think that the discussion has more to do with how things could be achieved but then---
But there are ways one can have a politics without strife. I think that the discussion has more to do with how things could be achieved but then---
Let's not forget the definition of a NIMBY. Not In My Back Yard. NIMBYs aren't opposed to trains (or whatever the cause), they want the track to run SOMEWHERE ELSE. No doubt by the houses of people who make less money and/or have less political connections than they do.
Reality TV is to reality, what Professional Wrestling is to Professional Brain Surgery.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
selector Simple, use another subject or approach. Just don't be political. Rules is rules. Less glibly, you can talk about the effects/outcomes, just stay away from commenting on the affiliations, orientation, intelligence, morality, and any other irrelevant characteristic of the person who wishes to have the legislation put in place, or who has done so. In other words, confine your opinions to the potential salutary or deleterious results, and do not offer comments about the person proffering the approaches or methods. You could even comment on the reasoning or logic/illogic as you see it, but don't link the problematic thinking to the utterer or proponents in such a way as to politicize the discussion. Does that make sense? No ad hominems, just the facts as you see them where the facts are material in nature with respect to railroading. -Crandell
Simple, use another subject or approach. Just don't be political. Rules is rules.
Less glibly, you can talk about the effects/outcomes, just stay away from commenting on the affiliations, orientation, intelligence, morality, and any other irrelevant characteristic of the person who wishes to have the legislation put in place, or who has done so. In other words, confine your opinions to the potential salutary or deleterious results, and do not offer comments about the person proffering the approaches or methods. You could even comment on the reasoning or logic/illogic as you see it, but don't link the problematic thinking to the utterer or proponents in such a way as to politicize the discussion.
Does that make sense? No ad hominems, just the facts as you see them where the facts are material in nature with respect to railroading.
fine, but then by your own definition you should likewise censor the people who are faulting the NIMBYs, for daring to have a collective opinion.
anti-nimbyism is a POLITICAL expression, crandell
I would rather the now dormant Minnesota Zephyr tracks behind my house turn into a commuter rail line than a bike/jogger path that the state has been talking about for a few years.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Scenerio: NJT links the old EL Greenwood Lk Div. *** Boonton Line to the former DL&W Montclair Line, electrifies it and begins service to Hoboken or NYPENN weekdays only because the NIMBYS don't want to be disturbed on the weekends with the sounds of trains, train horns, nor did they want the grade crossings being blocked. NJT complies but holds out that the future might bring about service anyway; NIMBYS scoff. Today, there are non rail related road bridge projects, etc. which are being attended to on weekends so that weekday train traffic does not get disrupted. And now the NIMBYS are complaining they don't have weekend train service saying NJT is dragging its heels! That's NIMBYism at its fullest perfection!
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Johnny - I didn't know that !
So which cartoon is your favorite ?
- Paul North.
erikem selector Please don't descend into a political "treatise" or series of them in this thread. You all know the inevitable outcome. The general theme so far is poking fun at politicians in general as opposed to a specific political viewpoint (or from a specific city, region or country).
selector Please don't descend into a political "treatise" or series of them in this thread. You all know the inevitable outcome.
The general theme so far is poking fun at politicians in general as opposed to a specific political viewpoint (or from a specific city, region or country).
The word "politicians", you'll notice, contains the word "politics". That makes it verboten.
selectorPlease don't descend into a political "treatise" or series of them in this thread. You all know the inevitable outcome.
Paul_D_North_JrTrains, May 1965 page 26 cartoons about Pacific Great Eastern's new (old) line into North Vancouver ( HUMOR, "NORRIS, LEN", PGE, "TYCKOSON, GARTH", TRN )
Paul, you are behind the times. The cartoons appeared in an issue of Robert Young's Railway Progress in the fifties, at the time that the Prince George Eventually (as the PGE was often known, as it then existed only between Squamish and Lillooet), was constructing its long-delayed line. I am glad that Trains did publish them so that so more people could see them and appreciate the humor which defused some opposition; should they have been mentioned to CN as it laid its plans to run more trains on the EJ&E?
Johnny
Coal trains? you should have heard all the whining and gnashing of teeth here when the unused for 2 years freight line thru my city was reopened as a light rail trolley line, Oh the noise! Oh the horns! Oh the vibrations!!! Wah wah wah!!
The trains are extremely quite, the horns sound like an anemic duck quacking! and you can barely feel anything when they go by...Sheesh!
Have fun with your trains
Bad - "Senator Gabby doesn't have two clues. If they did, they'd rub together."
Better (and subject to close scrutiny)- "Senator Gabby proposed yesterday that AMTRAK be dissolved and sold to private interests for pennies on the dollar. I think it was a stupid idea."
Best - "Legislation was introduced in Congress that will see AMTRAK dissolved and sold to private interests. I don't feel they gave sufficient weight to ........"
From Merriam-Webster: Treatise: a systematic exposition or argument in writing including a methodical discussion of the facts and principles involved and conclusions reached.
How, then, are we to express our opinions regarding the relationship of our elected officials and the reasons for the decisions they make regarding railroad operations and the effect they have on the population?
kbathgate Unfortunately, residents in houses built while the line was dormant are now complaining about noise and vibration from coal trains.
As is often the case - esp. in the railroad business - something like this has already happened at least once before. See:
How to replace a railway Trains, May 1965 page 26 cartoons about Pacific Great Eastern's new (old) line into North Vancouver ( HUMOR, "NORRIS, LEN", PGE, "TYCKOSON, GARTH", TRN )
As I understand it, the tracks were removed from might have been a former trolley line many years before - but the right-of-way was never formally abandoned, and somehow the then-PGE - later British Columbia Railway, now CN - acquired the rights to it. In the meantime, gardens were planted, garages and sheds - maybe even some houses, etc. - were built on the R-O-W, and there were similar worries about the disruptions when the tracks and train service were restored. This article - in the 1st copy of Trains I ever purchased by a subscription - is a collection of about a dozen editorial cartoons from a local/ provincial newspaper, and they are pretty funny. One of my favorites is about speculation that the West Vancouver Garden & Beautification Society (or similar) might resolve that the PGE's RS-3 (?) locomotives should be decorated with flowerpots to make them fit in better !
It's too bad there's not some way for the Trains staff to put things like that on-line for the general amusement and enjoyment of all.
Politicians are the same worldwide.
I would happily trade their train vibrations for the earthquake vibrations I've encountered - not as frequent, granted, but a LOT more violent!
Or, for a phenomenon I encounter about as frequently as those good folk are bothered by passing trains - combat aircraft taking off from my friendly, neighborhood Air Force Base. If they think trains are loud...
Politicians listen to the loudest outcry, not the most reasonable one.
Chuck
kbathgate The danger is that politicians will pander to this kind of NIMBYism by blocking important rail infrastructure projects in the future.
Unfortunately, too often the opposite of PROgress is CONgress.
Reading this story from here in Scotland, I couldn’t help thinking of the EJ&E/CN situation:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/8094924.stm
The situation here is a bit different in that the 13-mile Stirling-Alloa-Longannet freight line closed to through traffic in 1982, and was completely out of use by the mid-‘90s. Last year, it was reopened to great fanfare by the politicians, in order to (a) reintroduce a passenger service to the town of Alloa, and (b) give unit coal trains to Longannet power station (Europe’s third largest coal-fired station) a more direct route than their previous circuitous journey via the highly congested Edinburgh & Glasgow main line and Forth Bridge. Unfortunately, residents in houses built while the line was dormant are now complaining about noise and vibration from coal trains. The reopening was very popular at the time (and passenger traffic has greatly exceeded expectations), but needless to say the local politicians are queuing up to squeal loudly about compensation for the residents, banning night traffic and reducing the line speed for freight. (There is a general election due soon, in case you hadn't guessed).
To my mind, if you buy a house next to a railway, even a dormant one, you’ve got to be prepared to live with trains. Millions of people live near railways, and live with the disturbance. Landowners didn’t compensate the railway when it closed, so why should the railway have to compensate them when it reopens, or put up with unreasonable operating restrictions? The danger is that politicians will pander to this kind of NIMBYism by blocking important rail infrastructure projects in the future.
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