I have no idea where you are located in the Country? But, remember that the 'Dollywood RR" is an operational amusement park railrioad { on about 2.5 miles of track(?) near Gatlinburg,Tn- South of Knoxville,Tn.} It is a 3' gauge, and is also home to a former WP&Y Steam Loco #70; among others. ' The Silver Dollar City RR' is another operating railroad, near Branson, Mo {2' gauge with several steam engines and operates a 'line' of about 2 miles(?). Both are owned by the same amusement park corp.
Then there is this: Cagney Steam Engines:
@ http://www.wrrc.us/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/20130710-Cagney-Brochure-Web.pdf
And then there was Crown Metal Products that made Amusement park Steam Trains and rides(?) @https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Metal_Products
if you are entrusted mining locomotive that i know of cost $5,500 to $300,000 orso ,
depanding on if it is operation or not .
here's some links : https://www.savonaequipment.com/en/equipment/locomotives-e41538
http://www.infomine.com/equipment/underground/locomotives/
http://www.nelsonmachinery.com/locomotives
http://www.irwincar.com/locomotive-mining.php
https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/underground-mining-locomotive.html
https://www.bmcdowell.com/see-more-mining-equipment/mcdowell-mining-division-locomotives-railway-equipment
If you are interested in park train size equipment, check out the www.discoverlivesteam.com for sale page. It is primarily smaller equipment, but occasionally there will be larger (15" - 24" gauge) equipment for sale. There are still companies that build smaller trains, such as Hillcrest Works (15" - 36" gauge), Diamond Car Works (14" - 16" gauge) and of course, Chance Amusement (24" gauge). Be forewarned, buying this stuff isn't cheap. Keep an eye out for used equipment and rail. Best of luck!
- James
Well I looked it up and it has already been auctioned. I'll keep looking.
There you go !
Paul_D_North_Jr santafe347 I talked to him and 2 foot gauge is back as a possibility. Standard even if we got a good deal on equipment. The only thing that will decide gauge is cost. I suggest that you approach all this from the standpoint of, "How much do we really need to do the job that we want it to do ?" Again, take a look at the plantation railroad operations to get a sense of how simple and informal that can be = less work and money to get it up and running, and so more fun with it sooner. It's the technology that works and has the attraction, not the specific equipment. Since you're not constrained by standard gauge size, interchange standards, and other real-world requirements, you have a lot of freedom to improvise and make things up as you go along, and so take advantage of unusual opportunities to save money, time, and effort. Another thought: Look around and/ or contact scrap dealers* for abandoned/ scrapped steel mills, underground coal mines, and the like - and their successors - for NG equipment (this thought was inspired by the nearby Bethlehem Steel Co. plant that's now a casino). The prime time for that was probably 10 to 20 years ago, but there may still be some laying around rusting in various places that could be had for scrap prices. Since you and your friend are in or near the "rust belt" NorthEast and MidWest US, those may also be good potential sources. I know that BSCo had a narrow gauge, as did Lukens Steel in Coatesville and CarTech in Reading. Maybe also amusement park RRs - I think that several here in Pennsylvania have gone belly-up in the past several years. * - Brandenburg (Industrial Service Co. or Demolition, etc.) is the big name around here for that - they tore down almost all of the BSCo plants in Bethlehem. See: http://www.brandenburg.com/Default.html Good luck with it all. - Paul North.
santafe347 I talked to him and 2 foot gauge is back as a possibility. Standard even if we got a good deal on equipment. The only thing that will decide gauge is cost.
I suggest that you approach all this from the standpoint of, "How much do we really need to do the job that we want it to do ?" Again, take a look at the plantation railroad operations to get a sense of how simple and informal that can be = less work and money to get it up and running, and so more fun with it sooner. It's the technology that works and has the attraction, not the specific equipment. Since you're not constrained by standard gauge size, interchange standards, and other real-world requirements, you have a lot of freedom to improvise and make things up as you go along, and so take advantage of unusual opportunities to save money, time, and effort.
Another thought: Look around and/ or contact scrap dealers* for abandoned/ scrapped steel mills, underground coal mines, and the like - and their successors - for NG equipment (this thought was inspired by the nearby Bethlehem Steel Co. plant that's now a casino). The prime time for that was probably 10 to 20 years ago, but there may still be some laying around rusting in various places that could be had for scrap prices. Since you and your friend are in or near the "rust belt" NorthEast and MidWest US, those may also be good potential sources. I know that BSCo had a narrow gauge, as did Lukens Steel in Coatesville and CarTech in Reading. Maybe also amusement park RRs - I think that several here in Pennsylvania have gone belly-up in the past several years.
* - Brandenburg (Industrial Service Co. or Demolition, etc.) is the big name around here for that - they tore down almost all of the BSCo plants in Bethlehem. See:
http://www.brandenburg.com/Default.html
Good luck with it all.
- Paul North.
Good idea about the amusement park. I do know of one that closed not too far from here that I think had 2 engines and 6-8 cars. Passenger cars, but they have trucks couplers and brakes. (And Blomberg trucks!)
Can you imagine the axle hunt that would occur with wide wheels and flanges that are inches from their rail head? Even at low speed some of those trucks could turn sideways!
I know,,, someone should make engines and cars with wheels that are 3 feet wide with the flanges all the way into the inside to handle 2 foot gauge track. So its essentially a train that can handle any gauge of track from 2 feet to 5 feet.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
I talked to him and 2 foot gauge is back as a possibility. Standard even if we got a good deal on equipment. The only thing that will decide gauge is cost.
Consider also the (relatively) nearby Reading Society of Model Engineers' 15-inch gauge "Laurel Run Railroad", with a home-built "diesel" locomotive. See:
http://www.rsme.org/
- PDN.
Here is the sweetest little hobby railroad that I have ever seen. It is 7.5”-gauge based on a heavy 2-foot-gauge prototype such as Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes or Bridgeton & Harrison. It looks like they are using something like 12 or 16-pound rail. By following the heavy 2-foot-gauge pattern, they are able to achieve about the smallest gauge that would allow people to ride inside of the cars and locomotives. They have really captured the feel of the narrow gauge prototypes. This narrow of a gauge probably would not be realistic to handle your big hay bales because of their size, but it would handle the weight without a sweat. It is just that the bale size would place the weight into an unstable overhang. But it does show what can be done by fiddling with the proportions of a railroad. There are tons of photographs strung out in this site, including some showing the construction of rolling stock and trucks:
http://www.frolin.net/mmgs/srcl/
Rail: We can check size, but we may end up scrapping it to get money.
Cars: That would be fine except we want cars with trucks. Until we get or build a loco we are going to pull them with a tractor.
General: As far as equipment, everyone involved in this project volunteers in restoring this loco to operating condition, and we are working on engineer certification.: http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=613 About track, that may be a good idea.
I contacted EBT about getting parts and it said since they are owned by the non-profit for 3 years they aren't selling anything.
After some further thought:
Rail: 140 lb. RE section has a 6" wide base, and is 7-5/16" high when new - a little less when worn, but likely still 7" or a little higher. If that's what it really is, it would have some value - as scrap for sure, and more likely for some grade or class of relay rail - so consider trading or selling it to buy a more suitable rail, such as for 2 ft. gauge - again, maybe from the EBT or an abandoned mine, etc.
Just a speculation: Might it be the 10040 section instead, which got mangled in the translation ? That's the brand for the 100 lb. ASCE section, which has a 5-3/4" wide base and was 5-3/4" high when new - probably down to around 5-1/2" when worn pretty well. Finding that in the woods would be weird, too, because I can't recall seeing much of it outside of Phila. Electric Co. power plants, but is more plausible to me than the 140 RE. If so, the relay value would be nil, but again it would have scrap value.
Cars and gauge: OK, those haybales are likely going to be stacked only 1 high, because they're round. Any standard gauge pushcar I've seen has wheels and axles good for a couple dozen ties or 2 -3 pieces of rail - from 3,000 to 5,000 lbs. roughly. (The "dinky equipment" I was referring to on the Strasburg is the pushcars, not the cars and locomtoives.) Anyway, even a 2 ft. gauge pushcar should have plenty of capacity for a several hundred pound haybale, and be wide enough to accomodate one that is 5 to 6 ft. around. Although most are small and roughly square to facilitate easy handling, there are some that are considerably longer than wider, so you could do that as well. In effect, a 4-wheel flatcar with rigid axles - like European practice.
Despite the name, pushcars usually have clevises and drawbars to link several of them together to be pulled or pushed by a motor car or similar ersatz "locomotive", so you could do that to have a mini-train.
General: May I respectfully suggest that you and/ or your friend spend some time working on some real track and equipment as volunteers - such as at EBT or Strasburg or a trolley museum - to gain a better appreciation of what it is capable of, and the challenges involved in what you're proposing to do. (Note: This is unbiased - I have no affiliation of any kind with any of them.) You'll acquire information and skills that you'll need anyway for what you're proposing to do, and probably make good contacts for sources of materials and equipment, etc. For example, the "Friends of the EBT" group has regular approx. monthly "work session" weekends - the next ones are scheduled for this coming weekend - June 6-7, 2009 - and 3 weeks after that - June 27-28, 2009. For more info and details on that, see: http://www.febt.org/Restore/index.html
We had originally wanted 2-foot gauge but because of size issues and the rails saving money we decided on either 3 foot or 30 inch.
Here is some excellent video of heavy 2-foot-gauge:
http://vimeo.com/4552678
About the rail: I think it was abandoned in the 70s or so, it was after Chessie because they had a duplicate route and they went with the B&O instead.
Pushcars: these aren't the normal little 1x2x2 or whatever they are rectangular hay bales or even the smaller 3 foot or so round ones, these are 5-6 feet around and about 5 feet tall and they weigh several hundred pounds. Pushcars may be an option, but we want them to be locomotive-hauled and it is a pretty good distance to have to push them. (Strasburg is standard gauge, so not dinky equipment.) I know how much the EBT cars can hold for what you'd think for their size.
Yes, trucks and everything else is what we would need but a hopper or two would be nice for ballast. Somebody else did this once, only buying trucks, but they never scrapped the bodies, they are still there.
Ask your friend to double-check the markings, or better yet, measure the height and base width of the rail. 140 pound rail is completely inconsistent with: 1) WM just leaving something that valuable in the woods, and 2) 50 to 60 years ago. Also partially inconsistent in that while I'm not a WM expert, I doubt that WM ever purchased anything that large/ heavy.
What you're proposing to use it for is more like one of the first pioneer railroads - think Best Friend of Charleston or Tom Thumb - or a plantation railroad than a 3 ft. narrow gauge in terms of capacity and service. It doesn't have to be big - see what was done with the Maine 2-footers. In view of you're financial constraints, I suggest revisiting Bucyrus' suggestions above about using motorcar or pushcar parts. Better yet, visit a real working short-line or tourist railroad such as Strasburg or the EBT and see just how much weight that seemingly dinky equipment can actually carry. I'll bet you can't put enough bales of hay on a pushcar to overload it ! Otherwise, think about amusement park or surplus mine equipment, etc.
If you do approach the EBT, you don't want the whole hopper, do you ? Just the trucks, couplers, and brakes, please. They can keep the hopper body and scrap it - that would be the attraction to them.
cprtedDo you guys have someone who knows what they're doing involved in this little project? I hate to labeled a curmudgeon, but this project would fall under the jurisdiction of the FRA and/or a state level transportation agency and would have to licensed in the same manner as any other industrial railway.
No we don't, so thanks for pointing that out. I'll tell him next time I see him.
Ok, some more details. It will be a full scale working railroad, not a model of any kind. At first we will be hauling hay bales, and later expanding to corn. When we finally get all that working we will build a scenic line through the woods. It will be kind of on the big side rather than small.
I talked to him about the rail, apparently he looked at the markings and it's around 140 pound rail, so it would be too big for sure. I had told him about the EBT but right now we have pretty much no funds available so I don't know if they would sell any hoppers or not. Maybe someone knows what they charged the Colorado railroads and the WP&Y for the hoppers they sold them.
Following-up a little bit on on the most recent comments by Bucyrus (above) with regard to:
- Switches (more properly, a "turnout", each consisting of 2 switch points + 1 frog + 2 guard rails + lots of special plates and other fittings, etc.) : Does your friend intend or need to have any ? If so, the cost and availability of those could affect the rail decision more than the availability of "free" rail and accessories;
Curvature - how sharp ? 100 lb. rail can go to as sharp as 250 ft. radius (23-degree curve) without a hugely additional amount of difficulty after it is bolted together in a longer "string", provided that the access to perform all that is "good", such as in or over a farm field. In a more restricted setting such as on top of a narrow fill, it is a lot trickier. Beyond that, you can get down to maybe 150 ft. radius (40-degree curve) without special tools or pre-bending and with a big enough dozer or loader to hold the rail in place for the desired curve until it is spiked down, but sharper becomes progressively harder and more work and more challenging.
santafe347I am helping a friend design a 3 foot gauge farm railway, and in order to save money for us, I was wondering if it was possible to use standard gauge track components for 3 foot gauge.
I assume your friend’s plan is to build a sort of hobby or estate railroad with no functional purpose other than to ride on for enjoyment. If this is the case, there is no particular prototype standard, even though a specific gauge has been selected. A 3-foot-gauge could carry people even if built to a very light pattern. Rail as light as 16-pound would work fine. Small mine tram wheels or even Fairmont stamped and drawn motorcar wheels would easily handle the load. Ties on the order of 6” x 6” or smaller with small spikes or screw clips would suffice. Lots of compromises such as the omission of springs are possible when building to this light pattern. Other than wheels and rail, all metalwork can be fabricated from scratch. Building to this light pattern fulfills the objective to ride on a train of sorts, but it lacks the charm of something more authentic to the medium to heavy prototypes. Nevertheless, building a hobby railroad is a lot of work and expense, so the compromises are very attractive to some people.
Railroad prototypes such as D&RGW and EBT are at the heavy end of the pattern range, using heavy cast iron 24” diameter wheels and rail in the 60-85-pound range. Acquiring prototype rolling stock or a locomotive in that heavy pattern, and transporting it to your site will no doubt entail serious costs. I agree with Paul’s advice about contacting EBT to see if they would sell you anything. Other than that, there are sometimes ads in Live Steam magazine offering a supply of relatively light rail, trucks, wheelsets, etc. I agree with Henry that too large of rail can look ungainly, but that is sort of the look of narrow gauge. A lot of the components of narrow gauge are relative large when compared to the same components in standard gauge systems. When using extra heavy rail, it helps the look to use the heaviest ties and spikes you can find such as those used on standard gauge mainlines. It also helps the look to use heavy, deep rock ballast. I kind of like the look of those extra heavy components in narrow gauge track.
If I were starting from scratch, buying all the rail and track components, I would not select the heaviest pattern. Instead, I would use rail around 60-pound and standard gauge ties and spikes. But if I had a free supply of 100-pound rail, I would use it and build the heaviest pattern.
I have seen some few photos of the Drummond Mine railroad in Columbia, SA. I am guessing that it is about the highest capacity 3-foot-gauge operation in existence. I wonder what size rail they use. Maybe you could get exact measurements or the rolling numbers off of that WM rail and somebody here could tell you more about it. Did the WM leave any joint bars or track bolts?
Since the WM ran through your friend's farm, he's likely "not far" (less than, say, 100 miles) from the East Broad Top Railroad, a 3 ft. gage line in south-central Pennsylvania. See:
http://www.ebtrr.com/
Many NG hoppers used to be stored and just rusting away in the EBT's Mt. Union yard. For a "sortable" physical roster of same as of 2000 and maybe as recently as 2005, see:
http://www.spikesys.com/EBT/proster.html
Perhaps you or your friend could apporach either the Kovalchick family and/ or the "Friends of the EBT" and see about purchasing some of the surplus trucks and other essential equipment ?
I am not sure what your venture is. If it is for public use and education, then I would point out that the Maine Narrow Guage museum operation on the Portland waterfront was along the old CN right of way with the standard guage rails moved in to accommodate the narrow guage trains. However, it looked odd and was not authentic in that the rails were much too big for the narrow guage. But if authenticity is not a factor in viewing and marketing, then, yes, it is usable.
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In Ireland, the preserved Suir Valley Railway near Waterford is a 3' gauge line built on the trackbed of a standard gauge (which in Ireland is 5' 3"!) line. In fact when the preservationist took it over most of the standard gauge was still in place so they just moved one of the rails inward to make it 3' gauge. (all their rolling stock was 3' guage hence the decision to convert the line).
As for re-gauging existing rolling stock, the Tal-y-llyn Railway in Wales are the experts when it comes to that. They've had to be because their line is built to the almost unique gauge of 2' 3" so when they took it over in 1950 and set about acquiring extra rolling stock most of the stock they acquired from elsewhere had to be re-gauged from either 2' or 2' 6". I seem to recall they acquired a job lot of 3' gauge track from the aborted construction of the Channel Tunnel in the 1970s.
Ironically, the one place the TR were able to get 2' 3" stock from, the nearby Corris Railway which closed in 1948, has now been re-opened. The CR have also had to acquire and regauge other stock, though they've also built a new steam loco and have just started fund raising for their next new build project.
Thanks guys. That's what I figured about the trucks, but it's good the rails will work. Some of that stuff has been there for 50-60 years so I don't think anybody cares about it.
So the rails and trucks are on your friend’s property? Ordinarily, with this kind of abandoned material, you would have to be somewhat concerned about who has title to it. Even if taking does not result in any prosecution, you don’t want to be forced to give it back, after committing a lot of labor to salvaging and re-using it. If the WM left the material on your property, though, I guess you might be in a fairly strong position.
But in any case, as mudchicken has mentioned, the rail would be useable for 3-foot-gauge. A lot of narrow gauge lines ended up using relatively heavy rail in proportion to their gauge, compared to standard gauge. Some of the 2-footers used rail in the 56-60+ pound range. Spikes and ties from the standard gauge would be fine for the 3-foot-gauge.
However, trying to modify and use the trucks and wheelsets for 3-foot-gauge seems like an uphill battle. A common wheel diameter for 3-foot-gauge is 24”, and the standard gauge wheels will be 33”. It would be an awful lot of cutting, grinding, measuring, fixturing, and expert welding to narrow a standard gauge truck. And the result would be a mighty heavy-duty and tall 3-foot-gauge truck.
The wheelbase would be quite long if you chose to not shorten the truck frames, but shortening them would be a lot of extra work and would yield inelegant results. So, even though they may be free for the taking, by the time you invest all the labor of recovering and re-working them, your effort would be better spent on locating and purchasing some narrow gauge components. If you only acquired the wheels or wheel/axle sets, you could build the side frames, bearing boxes, bolster, and other components easier than modifying the standard gauge components, and end up with a much better result.
(1) The larger track section will do fine until you get ito the curves. The Colorado narrow gauges are all trying to upgrade/standardize on 85# rail.
(2) Cutting down axles & truck components? ....Make sure to stay away from me!
(Sounds like WM learned some PC/CR bad habits.)
Calling Mr. Stahl!
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