I was reading about railroad rules at Al Krug's site. Very interesting!
http://krugtales.50megs.com/rrpictale/rules/rule_eleclock.htm
The site talked about a hand-operated electric lock switch that had a 7 min. wait period. I got the impression that you couldn't throw the switch if the train wasn't right next to it. It also mentioned about unlocking the switch but not thowing at that time.
Will somebody explain about this type of switch, how it is used, and how it works.
An electric locked switch and an electric locked switch timer are two different things but may be used together. An electric locked switch is a hand thrown switch the electric lock being controlled by a dispatcher or an operator at a distant point. The timer, more prevelant at interlockings switches, is so that after unlocking there is a waiting time before the physical change can be made to determine if there are other trains approaching before the movement fouls the swithch. I've heard it is also used to give crews time to think through their move. That usually occurs when a movement is altered or changed after a signal governing the switch has changed it's aspect. If a train is a block or two away, it has to react to signals dropping in front of it, i.e. from clear to approach or clear or approach to stop. Thus the time allows for safety.
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henry6 If a train is a block or two away, it has to react to signals dropping in front of it, i.e. from clear to approach or clear or approach to stop. Thus the time allows for safety.
So the act of unlocking the switch affects the signal system thus showing other trains the intention to change that switch even though you cannot actually change it for several minuits. Right?
Sorry this is long, but like just about everything in signaling, there's a lot of detail. Electric locks appear in signalled territory, both CTC and ABS-TWC or ABS-DTC. The preponderance are in CTC territory.
An electric lock as the term is now used in AREMA standards is a device to prevent a hand-operated switch in controlled-track territory from being opened until the controlled signals governing main track movements over the hand-operated switch are at STOP and not running in time, and no train is in the block containing the hand-operated switch (between the controlled signals) unless the train is detected as moving away from the switch. The electric lock is not dispatcher controlled; is is 100% local.
In other words, the electric lock prevents the opening of a hand-throw switch in signalled territory in front of a train, and runs time on the signals so that an approaching train has time to clear the block before either the switch is thrown in front of it and without putting up an unanticipated red signal in front of a train. Regardless, authority from the train dispatcher is still required to enter the main track.
The method of operation of an electric lock for a train entering the main track at an electric lock is as follows:
The FRA accepts a leaving signal as equivalent to an electric lock. A leaving signal is an absolute, non-controlled signal governing the entrance to a controlled track from a non-controlled track. Method of operation consists of:
Railroads prefer leaving signals over electric locks because they are lower maintenance -- they have no mechanical parts that get out of adjustment like the locking dog in an electric lock. In signal rehab projects or changes to track configuration, electric locks are usually replaced by leaving signals. However, in some locations there is not sufficient clearance for the mast of a leaving signal between tracks so electric locks are continued in use in those cases.
The FRA requires a leaving signal or an electric lock for a hand-throw switch in controlled territory unless the speed limit on the controlled track is 30 mph or less. Thus there can be lots of hand-throw, non-electric lock switches for house tracks and industries off 30-mph sidings (which is a very common siding speed, with #14 or #15 turnouts), but not off the main track. However, if you put intermediate signals into the siding, then the siding can only have a maximum speed of 20 mph unless all the hand-throws are electric-lock or leaving-signal protected.
An exception is that the FRA allows hand-throws off main tracks or controlled sidings IF the spur track is a "Do Not Clear" -- the train when switching the track cannot clear the main track, because that zeros the signal system and allows the signal system to operate trains over the main track over the switch -- which is now unprotected. The entire train can enter the Do Not Clear track so long as the switch is NOT CLOSED. But the FRA frowns on this for obvious reasons and it's not a good design practice to rely on Do Not Clears instead of installing leaving signals or electric locks.
The electric lock in ABS territory simply runs time on adjacent signals. Operating rules still require the train to have authority to enter the main track; the dispatcher grants this authority by issuing a Track Warrant or DTC authority. The dispatcher cannot overlap these authorities with an existing authority on the main track unless the train holding the main track authority is moving away from the switch, and the train moving away from the switch confirms to the dispatcher it is past the switch. Most railroads now require the dispatcher to roll-up the main-track authority before granting the authority onto the main track behind it; "after arrival" authorities are now frowned upon because there were too many instances where the train entering the main track saw a train go by instead of the last train go by, and got out in front of a conflicting train.
For the GCOR rules see GCOR 9.17 and 9.18 http://www.trainweb.com/gcor/blocks.html#9.17 and 10.2 http://www.trainweb.com/gcor/ctc.html#10.0
For more detail see the AREMA standards. They're on line.
RWM
NP Redhenry6 If a train is a block or two away, it has to react to signals dropping in front of it, i.e. from clear to approach or clear or approach to stop. Thus the time allows for safety. So the act of unlocking the switch affects the signal system thus showing other trains the intention to change that switch even though you cannot actually change it for several minuits. Right?
The train must first have authority to enter the main track. The authority is granted by the dispatcher. To grant that authority the dispatcher must first protect conflicting train movements. The dispatcher must do this by either setting adjacent controlled signals at stop, or verbally directing the conflicting train to stop AFTER requesting from the conflicting train if it can stop safely. The electric lock is just a signal-system interlock on all this, that there's not a train already in the block that cannot stop safely before it encounters the open switch (or the train that might emerge from it!). It sets adjacent controlled signals to stop, approach-locks them, and aspects on either side of the controlled signals tumble down appropriately from proceed to approach, etc.
NP Red henry6 If a train is a block or two away, it has to react to signals dropping in front of it, i.e. from clear to approach or clear or approach to stop. Thus the time allows for safety. So the act of unlocking the switch affects the signal system thus showing other trains the intention to change that switch even though you cannot actually change it for several minuits. Right?
Basically, and simply, yes. It is interlocked to the signal system: either the act of unlocking affects the signal system or the dispatcher/operator has to set the signals in order to unlock the switch. But as RWM points out, there are many variables and situations so that each electric lock switch and each lock timer is its own universe.
henry6NP Red henry6 If a train is a block or two away, it has to react to signals dropping in front of it, i.e. from clear to approach or clear or approach to stop. Thus the time allows for safety. So the act of unlocking the switch affects the signal system thus showing other trains the intention to change that switch even though you cannot actually change it for several minuits. Right? Basically, and simply, yes. It is interlocked to the signal system: either the act of unlocking affects the signal system or the dispatcher/operator has to set the signals in order to unlock the switch. But as RWM points out, there are many variables and situations so that each electric lock switch and each lock timer is its own universe.
Dispatchers don't set signals, they only make requests to the signal system. The signal system grants the request only if it deems it safe to do so.
This may seem like a semantic or technical point but this distinction is absolutely fundamental to the logic of signal systems and train control method, and getting it backward means that virtually everything about train controls and signaling will make no sense. The entire point of an automatic system is that people do not control it because people make mistakes. I have spent now going on 30 years explaining over and over and over and OVER to people why this matters, and they just look at me like I'm speaking gibberish. The point is this: If unsafe conditions are caused by people that make mistakes, and we want to create a mechanical system that keeps people from making mistakes, why on earth would we then guarantee the system will fail, the system we just spent all that money to build, by allowing people to mess around with it? I think perhaps people took the Wizard of Oz too seriously and really do believe that the Man Behind the Curtain "controls all."
I would not say that there is a lot of variation on electric locks. There are only two kinds: in CTC territory, and in ABS territory. The ABS kind just sets the adjoining signals to stop, runs a timer for a preset period and then unlocks the switch. The CTC kind checks the signal conditions, and may, or may not, need to run a timer before it unlocks the switch, depending upon the signal conditions.
Electric timers are something altogether different; they are used to run time on a signal system before a signal will clear to enable a train to safely stop and not have a red signal thrown in its face, or a conflicting move to be set up against a train that cannot stop at a red signal thrown in its face. All controlled signals have timers, and many non-controlled, absolute signals do too.
...Now you know why trainmen and some maintenance guys look like they're faith-healing/laying hands on the solenoid housing waiting for the thing to clunk and release. I'm wondering if Mr. 7 Minute unintentionally started the time-out process all over again?
I have heard of all kinds of ungodly times on these things...up to 15 or 20 minutes in fact. Ordinarily they are in the 5 to 10 minute range. I have also heard of the timer clocks being smashed by a train or signal or tower man because of bad moves or total impatience..
This has been a fascinating thread. I just wanted to add that the basic concept being discussed is very old. I have read of diamond crossings on the Canadian prairies where when one train approaches the crossing, the crew either flips a switchstand type signal with a kerosene lamp on top or lights a fixed lamp and then sits there for a fixed number of minutes (not many in a world of 25 mph railroading) before he can cross the diamond. Then after the train has crossed the diamond the tail end trainmen either turns the lamp to its' original position or extinguishes it.
I always enjoy these types of discussion where you can see modern solutions to problems that have existed since the second train was put on the tracks.
AgentKid
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
AgentKidThis has been a fascinating thread.
It certainly has been fascinating and informative. I have known of electric locks for more that fifty years, from studying employee timetables and a few other sources, and I understood that their purpose was to enable any approaching movement to clear the switch or crossing before it would be fouled by the movement that needed permission to enter the main or move across the other main. RWM's posts explain the systems so that any of us non-railroaders should be able to understand their workings.
Johnny
Photo of one (not the most illustrative, unfortunately) - it's the silver boxes down on the switch timbers and the silver post next to the switch stand, to the right of the BNSF locomotive:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=146303
and a manufacturer's catalog pages for 2 models at:
http://www.alstomsignalingsolutions.com/OurProducts/WaysideProducts/SwitchProducts/Locks/
Another 3, from Ansaldo (formerly Union Switch & Signal, until Jan. 1, 2009):
http://www.ansaldo-sts.com/EN/AnsaldoSTS/private/private_files/catalog/CATALOG_CUTS/RSE-6G3_SL-25.pdf
http://www.ansaldo-sts.com/EN/AnsaldoSTS/private/private_files/catalog/CATALOG_CUTS/RSE-6G1_SL-21A.pdf
http://www.ansaldo-sts.com/EN/AnsaldoSTS/private/private_files/catalog/CATALOG_CUTS/RSE-6G2_SL-6A.pdf
See also Rules 10.1 and 10.2 as scanned and reprinted from the 1994 General Code of Operating Rules at:
http://www.psrm.org/faqs/rulebook/ctc.html
- Paul North.
Paul why dont you exsplain 10.0 10.1 10.2 10.3 and 10.3.1 10.3.2 10.3.3
wabash1 Paul why dont you exsplain 10.0 10.1 10.2 10.3 and 10.3.1 10.3.2 10.3.3
1. wabash1, knowing you as I do from your other posts here, I think you're just pulling my leg . . . .
B. I figured Railway Man essentially did just that for 10.1 and 10.2 in one of his posts above, far better than I could. And 10.3 - Track & Time and it subsections are really beyond the scope of electric switch lock operations.
iii. The rules are supposed to be self-explanatory and comprehensible by reasonable people of normal intelligence, right ? So I also think anyone that wants to know more can read and study those rules for themselves. Of course, it always helps to have someone knowledgeable and experienced with them rules - or any technical subject, for that matter - to serve as a guide and point out the weak spots and traps for the unwary, etc. So is there anything you want to say about them ?
Paul_D_North_Jriii. The rules are supposed to be self-explanatory and comprehensible by reasonable people of normal intelligence, right ? So I also think anyone that wants to know more can read and study those rules for themselves. Of course, it always helps to have someone knowledgeable and experienced with them rules - or any technical subject, for that matter - to serve as a guide and point out the weak spots and traps for the unwary, etc.
The ability to comprehend and communicate is vital when working for a railroad. We have seen this discussed on other threads. Anyone who has anything to do with the movement of trains and the maintenance of everything connected with the movement of trains must be able to comprehend and communicate–for the safety of all who are concerned with such.
It is true that it is difficult to state some directions concisely and clearly, and, as Paul remarked, the employee who has some difficulty understanding the direction or rule must rely on another employee who is familiar with it–and can communicate his knowledge.
wabash1, I agree with Paul; I am sure you could explain all of these rules so that even he can understand them.
To reiterate: those whose job it is to do also know. They are instructed, have books of rules, classes, timetables, bulliten orders, and tests, reviews and more tests. To fully know, understand, and operate under the rules and regulations is both mandatory and necessary for both holding down the job and for one's own personal safety as well as the safety of other employees, the employers property, the employers's customers products, and the general public. Failure to know and follow these rules and procdures could result in loss of job even loss of life. Railroaders are not stupid people by a long shot, they have to study and study hard, be prepared for changes, and be alert at all times. Not 9-5 mentality by any means.
No i was not pulling your leg. But due to the moderators altering my post or deleting them I will refrain from pursuing this topic for clairifacation.
wabash1 No i was not pulling your leg. But due to the moderators altering my post or deleting them I will refrain from pursuing this topic for clairifacation.
wabash1 - and others -
I don't think that I'm qualified to explain these rules in detail any better than has already been done here above, by RWM and others. However, I just had an opportunity to review the essay by Al Krug that started off this thread.
It's on his "Tales From The Krug" page, titled "GCOR Electric Locked hand operated switch rule", and can be found at:
He discusses several different scenarios in CTC terrritory involving electric locks during the pick-up of a loco from a facing point spur, yarding a too-long train from a main line with another train waiting, and running around a cut of tank cars to be spotted at a facing point spur, all revolving the interpretation of the critical word "ENTER". Most of us here should find it informative on the nuances of this; you working rails will likely find it amusing as well, particularly Krug's comments on the interpretation of "Rules" by railroad officials at:
http://krugtales.50megs.com/rrpictale/rules/rules.htm
Huh?
Folks,
I'm digging up this rather old topic for a clarification. Railway Man, thanks for your very informative post.
Railway Man The FRA accepts a leaving signal as equivalent to an electric lock. A leaving signal is an absolute, non-controlled signal governing the entrance to a controlled track from a non-controlled track. Method of operation consists of: Train enters the approach circuit for the leaving signal (it passes over a Ring-10) which lights the signal. Train contacts the dispatcher for authority to enter the controlled track. When the signal system confirms adjacent controlled signals are at STOP and not in time, and there is no approaching train, the leaving signal will give an aspect other than STOP (may be green or yellow). The train crew can now open the hand-throw switch and proceed.
Regarding the leaving signal in your description, does the dispatcher need to issue a command to the leaving signal, or does the leaving signal always clear, if the conditions you describe in 1 and 3 are met?
I'm thinking about getting such a setup onto FREMO americaN modules, in CTC territory. https://www.fremo-net.eu/en/modular-systems/n-scale/american/
Thanks and kind regards
Michael Prader
The leaving signal is an automatic signal, the dispatcher or control operator does not control the signal. If conditions permit, the signal will display a proceed signal once the switch is operated. If they don't permit, the signal stays red (stop).
Our leaving signals don't work until the hand lined switch is opened. Our sequence of events are different. Call dispatcher for authority to enter the main/controlled track. The dispatcher verbally authorizes to enter the main/controlled track. Crew opens the switch. If signal changes from stop (red) to a proceed (usually yellow for us) the train may immediately enter the track and then proceed on signal indication. If the signal doesn't change, the train must wait 10 minutes and then may pass the red signal and enter the track and proceed at restricted speed to the next governing signal. The train doesn't need further authority to pass the signal but would report that it didn't clear up and they had to wait.
Jeff
FRA regs require that if a 'train' is to parked clear of the Main Track(s) in signalled territory AND the track speed exceeds 20 MPH said train can only be 'parked' on a track that is protected by a signal, or an Electric Lock Switch. The Electric Locks may be timer operated or Dispatcher operated (most are timer operated).
Remember the Rule Book defination of a train 'Engine with or without cars displaying markers.'
There are many spur tracks along lines to service various industries. Most of them DO NOT have Electric Lock Switches to the Main Track(s) and thus, trains cannot clear in those tracks - even if the track is long enough to handle whatever size train we are talking about.
All switches (and derails) that lead to Main Track(s) in signalled territory are connected to the signal system. Trains must get permission from the Train Dispatcher to enter any signalled track - even signalled sidings.
When non-electric lock switches and/or derails are operated, their operation will create a indication on the Dispatchers model board and will 'drop' signals on either side of the switch and/or derail to their most restrictive indication. The wait time stipulated by the rules is to allow any train that 'might' have passed such signal time to pass the location of occupancy.
With many Electric Lock switches, removing the regular switch lock from it's keeper will begin a timer on the switch, set the opposing signals on the location to their most restrictive indication and set a indicator, after time has run the indicator changes and the switch can be operated by the crew. In many cases if the crew tries to operate the switch BEFORE proper time has expired, the timer starts over again from Zero. Electric Lock switches can be an exasperating piece of equipment for new Conductors.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Thanks Jeff for this information on the sequence.
I understand that the hand-operated switch is not electrically locked with at timer, is it?
In those 10 minutes, the conductor stays by the switch to close it, if the need arises to?
May I ask what railroad you are referring to?
Thanks again and kind regards
praderbz Thanks Jeff for this information on the sequence. I understand that the hand-operated switch is not electrically locked with at timer, is it? In those 10 minutes, the conductor stays by the switch to close it, if the need arises to? May I ask what railroad you are referring to? Thanks again and kind regards Michael Prader
Hand throw switches with a leaving signal that I've ever come across don't have an electric time lock.
When you have to wait the 10 minutes (Also applies to hand throw switches in ABS, but the wait time there is 5 minutes.) the person who lined the switch is supposed to wait in case they need to line it back. When you line the switch, it sets the main track signals to red. The wait time is in case a train has already past the last signal. It would have no notice of the open switch or train pulling out in front of it in that situation.
Union Pacific using GCOR book of rules.
The great Andy Sperandeo wrote about this in The Operators a few years ago. The Electronic Lock is the device placed at the entrance to a yard in dark territory to prevent trains from entering the yard on the main track or sidings in signaled territory that are dead end. If a siding connects to the main track but it is not a passing siding an electronic lock must be used and only a dispatcher or a signal tech can open an electronic lock not the crew. All electronic locks are fitted with timers this is why a tech must be at the switch to set them. All of the switches on the OSL except those at the concrete plant in Bliss, the siding going to the Bliss Wye, and most of the sidings on the OSL have electronic locks. The electronic lock is the silver box next to the switch.
I've never seen one of these and never will. CN doesn't even have these in the Canadian rule book anymore. There might be a few isolated ones left but they're all in special instructions in applicable timetables.
It's all too easy to tone up the RTC now and get your enter main track permission. I really don't see the point in why these would even be out there anymore.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
The only one I know of (on CN or elsewhere) was at Clover Bar Yard on the east side of Edmonton, to go north off the main track into a couple industry spurs, Lafarge cement and Celanese Canada's chemical plant (now demolished and turned into a bitumen diluent terminal).
It was removed about 3 years ago, so now there may be none left on CN.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
traisessive1I've never seen one of these and never will. CN doesn't even have these in the Canadian rule book anymore. There might be a few isolated ones left but they're all in special instructions in applicable timetables. It's all too easy to tone up the RTC now and get your enter main track permission. I really don't see the point in why these would even be out there anymore.
RTC's make mistakes too!
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