Thanks for all the info and thoughts....
"You show me a man with both feet on the ground and I'll show you a man who can't get his pants on." -anonymous
SFbrkmn The 1987 ICC order which required carriers to begin pooling boxcars nationwide certainly increased in seeing say a B&M car loaded w/ flour in KS being shipped to Houston for export. I was working in the flour business then and basically in a period of a few days it became normal for any car from any rr from anywhere being spotted on the dock for xport loading. A few yrs later a group of CSXT airslides was assigned to a KS flour pool for shipping to baking plants in OH & WV. These were not SF or UP cars loaded then sent back east, but rather the eastern cars coming to KS for a load. Don't think that was a camera film bonanaza in seeing these cars on a reqular routine many miles away from home rails sitting at the mill waiting to load or on the dock being loaded.
The 1987 ICC order which required carriers to begin pooling boxcars nationwide certainly increased in seeing say a B&M car loaded w/ flour in KS being shipped to Houston for export. I was working in the flour business then and basically in a period of a few days it became normal for any car from any rr from anywhere being spotted on the dock for xport loading. A few yrs later a group of CSXT airslides was assigned to a KS flour pool for shipping to baking plants in OH & WV. These were not SF or UP cars loaded then sent back east, but rather the eastern cars coming to KS for a load. Don't think that was a camera film bonanaza in seeing these cars on a reqular routine many miles away from home rails sitting at the mill waiting to load or on the dock being loaded.
Well explained SFbreakman. So basiclly what we are saying is that for the most part, the closest car to the spot of loading is the car going to be used.
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
Not only are there train cars, but some railroads do "Power By The Hour" miles. Here is a BNSF C44-9W working on NS tracks in Lafayette IN. a railroad, BNSF, lets NS locomotives run on their track so NS lets BNSF loco's to run on their track. This train snuck up on me too!
I asked this same question a while back didn't I guys? The car is loaded on a railroad siding say NS at Attica IN for example. After loading, the car's destanation may be Deshler Ohio. Well it's a NS car right. So what. CSX will take the car and unload it at Joe's house. Then it is returened to the nearest yard and then is SUPPOSED to be sent back in the direction of the owner railroad. But for some unbeknown reason, this doesn't always happen. As for billing wele' let the nice accountant lady crunch the numbers!
ndbprrOver the years arch bar trucks and access to car roofs have been two I recall and a cut off date of ten years or so was established to allow time to complete the work.
In Canada, if your over the double nickel in age you will also recall seeing cars with truss rods and K Model air brakes, not used in interchange service.
One question I have had for awhile though is, when did the current AAR list of reporting marks come into existence. It sure seems to me when I was very young, I would see CPR cars with just numbers and I certainly remember seeing cars with C.P. with period's instead of just the letter's like today. I'm guessing that dropping the period's came about with increased use of computer data entry. I hope somebody has an answer.
AgentKid
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
The AAR sets interchange rules and the charges for common repairs for foreign (not your home railroad) cars.
Per diem was changed to "car hire' which is an hourly rate instead of a daily rate. If your brand new engine is a GP30 or earlier you are charged per diem.If your brand new engine is an SD60 or newer you are paying car hire. Per diem and car hire rates are also set by the AAR.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
One thing that may not be clear is the difference between 'per diem' and 'demurrage'. Per Diem is the charge that a railroad pays to the owning railroad for use of the car. Usually at Midnight, if someone else's car is on your railroad - you owe a days worth of Per Diem to the car owner.
Demurrage is the charge that the railroad charges the shipper or consignee if they take too long to load/unload the freight car. In days past, the railroad would allow 72 hours to get the car loaded/unloaded and ready for the railroad to pick up. Some 'Shuttle' grain trains have a very short 10-12 hour window for loading 110 car trains with grain - then the delay charges start to accumulate.
Jim Bernier
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
NP Red What is the usual practice when a foreign car needs repair or even is damaged on your line. Is there a "standard charge" for certain repaires or is it kinda "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours"? Are you still charged "per diem" while it waited for repair?
What is the usual practice when a foreign car needs repair or even is damaged on your line. Is there a "standard charge" for certain repaires or is it kinda "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours"? Are you still charged "per diem" while it waited for repair?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
jkroft So why is that NS boxcar running on CSX lines?
Look at any picture of an old railyard or freight facility and you will see cars from many railroads in evidence.
Most unit trains will consist mostly of cars from one railroad or owner. So will trains in dedicated service (as is/was the case with auto parts trains).
Manifest freights, on the other hand, will likely be a mish-mosh of cars from just about every Class 1, a number of fallen flags (which cars have not been re-marked for the current owner), and numerous private owners.
Keep an eye on the reporting marks next time you're trackside and you'll see what I mean.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
There are a huge number of rules and situations but the basic premise is:
1. The shortest route is figured in determining the revenue as well as the weight. So if the shortest route between say New York and Chicago is 960 miles it doesn;t matter if the car is routed via Atlanta because the minimal milage is paid for.
2. If you have a railroad that goes to say Ft. Wayne, Indiana from New York via Buffalo and your competitor has a direct shorter route to Chicago you will take it to Ft. Wayne before handing it off so you get a larger portion of the revenue generated from the 960 mile charges.
3. Demurrage is the bible on car charges and is included in the ORER. Plan to spend a long time trying to decipher it. The basic rule is the longer you have someones car the more it is going to cost you. That goes for the person receiving the goods and other railroads moving it. So you return other railroads empty cars as fast as possible and try to fill all on line shippers needs with your cars when possible. Some cars are in dedicated service. Some cars are special and only carry certain products to prevent contamination. Some shippers and receivers pay a premium to have dedicated cars. When times are good and certain cars are in short supply (think Railbox) railroads will put instructions on cars like, "return to agent Altoona, Pa".
4. This is why you see private owner cars so companies that can afford them don't have to put up with the railroad charges other than mileage. Still others lease cars as it can be very profitable in good times.
5. All cars in interchange service have to meet certain requirements and this can be a moving target. Once the AAR or FRA decides on an improvement a cut off date is established and cars that don't have the improvement can't be interchanged . Over the years arch bar trucks and access to car roofs have been two I recall and a cut off date of ten years or so was established to allow time to complete the work.
6. Some exceptions can happen like hording grain cars right before a harvest so you can ship your customers products as timely as possible. Some yardmasters know their customer will need certain cars at certain times and may hold one or more. Example: ABC company just got a twelve car shipment of coal in railroad M cars for their powerhouse and XYZ aggregate needs fifteen cars in two days to ship an order of stone. Your railroad tells you it will be two weeks for the cars to arrive. You hold the twlve cars and look for three others rather tha return them.
Interesting, isn't it, how Dave's reply and mine - posted at about the same time, so obviously written simultaneously - cover just about the same ground, and in much the same way.
- PDN.
Interchange - a huge topic. Amazingly, there's not much that I could find which explains it on either this Trains website, nor on the Association of American Railroad's ("AAR") website, nor even in my last-resort "fallback", Wikipedia. [Trains editors- take notice ! Here's a good topic for an article of some kind in the "ABCs of Railroading" or someplace.] If anyone else knows of one, please post it here. Otherwise, in the meantime, here's a brief overview:
That NS boxcar is there on CSX because of a long-standing custom and reciprocal arrangement between railroads called "interchange". Instead of incurring the costs and delays of unloading the NS boxcar when it gets to the CSX track that leads towards the shipment's destination, and then reloading the goods into a CSX boxcar, the railroads have agreed to share their cars instead, so the load can continue on its way undisturbed and hence faster and cheaper. For your example, this generally occurs is on an ad hoc, as-needed, shipment-by-shipment, car-by-car basis.
Of course, the cars must be mechanically compatible with wheels, brakes, couplers, and grab irons, ladders, and other safety equipment ("appliances"). That's all governed by the AAR's interchange rules, the Railway Safety Appliance Act, and probably some other rules and regulations.
The railroads also have some arrangement to share the revenue from the shipment - another huge topic. Normally, if the shipper is on NS, NS gets paid, but has to share some of that money with CSX.
But CSX, in turn, has to pay NS for CSX's use of the NS car while it's on the CCSX tracks - that's called "per diem" - yet another huge topic. Private cars add more complications.
For more info, probably the best next resource is the Simmons-Boardman Publishing Co. book, The Railroad - What It Is, What It Does, by John Armstrong. Otherwise, do Internet searches with the above terms, and pig out on the results. Below is a link to one article (Roy Blanchard from 2002) that I found while doing just that to attempt to find a "one-stop" answer to your question (not yet). While not definitive, it will provide some more background and insight, and leads or topics to look for further research. Good luck with it !
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1215/is_6_203/ai_90888231/
- Paul North.
You must be new to railroading.
Its called "interchange" and its been common practice since the mid 1800's. Before that railroads would have to stop at each junction and unload the commodity from railroad A's cars to railroad B's cars. VERY inefficient. So instead, they load the commodity in one car and send it in that car all the way to destination, regardless of who's tracks its on.
A railroad pays the owner of the car mileage/car hire/per diem (depending on car type, owner and era) for the car while its on their tracks. The railroad recieves from the shipper or consignee a portion of the revenue for moving a load over their tracks.
The American Assoc. of Railroads (AAR) sets rules for interchange between all the railroads in N America.
So why is that NS boxcar running on CSX lines? Is it in pooled service? Did it just happen to end up in a CSX yard? Does NS have to pay CSX to move it around? What reasons might it be there for?
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