passengerfanI would rather see a similar project involving the rails take place now. It would put an awful lot of people to work if the government was to undertake electrifying the major rail lines criscrossing the country and build a series of Nuclear Power plants at the same time to power them.
OTOH there was probably no crying need to electrify the NEC from D.C. (Harrisburg) to NYC/Penna. by the PWA/WPA in the Thirties. It may even have hurt B&O revenues, because IIRC its steam line, not PRR's, was the primary passenger line from Washington thru Baltimore up to a ferry site in New Jersey adjacent to New York City.
Perhaps the trans-Hudson tunnel shifted the electrification in Penna's favor?
And even though there wasn't a proven market for trains over the electrification of the Pennsy, aren't you glad they did it? Some of those infrastructure projects looked idiotic in the Thirties, but did provide some employment and left some wonderful structures. I am not trying to imply that federal projects are inherently more forward-thinking, and I do understand (look at NEC New Haven-to-Boston) that an electrification over a designated line between different cities today would be a much more complex task for all kinds of reasons and much, much more expensive. Still, makes me think.
Q: How many Libertarians does it take to change a light bulb?
A: None. In time, the market will do it.
henry6This question and this topic underscores the need for a rational, universal, transportation policy integrating air, highway, water and rail into a cohesive, reasonble, effecient system for both freight and passengers. In fact, as has been stated on these pages and elsewhere, the AAR, BNSF, UP, NS, and CSX have all voiced the need of government help in achieving infrastructure needs over the next 25-50 years since private sources cannot cover all.
In fact, as has been stated on these pages and elsewhere, the AAR, BNSF, UP, NS, and CSX have all voiced the need of government help in achieving infrastructure needs over the next 25-50 years since private sources cannot cover all.
Wish lists have no bounds, whereas private resources do. Private capital flows to what is necessary, and as such, naturally separates what is actually needed from what is merely wished for. The new visitor’s center at the national capital is an example of what is wished for versus what is needed. Looking at that example, can you imagine what it would cost to have these geniuses in congress rebuild our entire transportation infrastructure? The question of this topic may suggest a need for a rational transportation policy, but I don’t think the question underscores the need, if by underscore, you mean proves. In my opinion, we already have a cohesive, reasonable, efficient transportation system.
This question and this topic underscores the need for a rational, universal, transportation policy integrating air, highway, water and rail into a cohesive, reasonble, effecient system for both freight and passengers. Politically the there is opposition, especially from the right. Economically, there is support from the left but also from within the industries themselves. Highway and rail are understanding the need for such a policy especially in the area of freight, but also in some passenger circumstances. In fact, as has been stated on these pages and elsewhere, the AAR, BNSF, UP, NS, and CSX have all voiced the need of government help in achieving infrastructure needs over the next 25-50 years since private sources cannot cover all.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
On a reasonable list of priorites, doing high speed rail, electrifing existing rail or simply repairing/upgrading current lines is a long way down the list. Surely, coming to some kind of a conclusion about the fate of the Detroit based portion of the auto industry is much more critical as is finding some kind of a solution short of outright foreclosure for hard pressed homeowners.
Moreover, the large rail projects, like electric power projects, take years to plan, permit and so on. Our focus should be on projects that immediately put money into the economy. It strikes me that the one useful rail project that could be undertaken on an immediate basis is the repair of Amtrak cars and ordering new cars/engines for both Amtrak and the various commuter lines.
passengerfan I for one believe that if the RRs had been in better shape following the Great Depression that WWII would have been at least shortened by a year. The RR infrastructure was in terrible shape as a whole due to deferred maintenance during the depression. Not true of all roads but a vast majority were not in that great a shape at the time war broke out in December 1941 and virtually all had to do with what was available. Certain roads bought large numbers of FTs at the time but deferred maintenance continued throughout the war years. Al - in - Stockton
I for one believe that if the RRs had been in better shape following the Great Depression that WWII would have been at least shortened by a year. The RR infrastructure was in terrible shape as a whole due to deferred maintenance during the depression. Not true of all roads but a vast majority were not in that great a shape at the time war broke out in December 1941 and virtually all had to do with what was available. Certain roads bought large numbers of FTs at the time but deferred maintenance continued throughout the war years.
Al - in - Stockton
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I think it is a very good idea, but being a political science major at Purdue this is what I think of the plan politically. It does benefit a small group (the railroad industry) in the short term and the funds are spread out, so that makes it easy to pass in the legislature. Right now having a Democratic majority in congress would be the time to present this legalization and you can easily attach it to Independence from foreign oil, as well as economic stimulus policy. The major problem standing in the way is the drop in fuel prices which will go back up again. The other major problem is that it sounds too much like a bailout plan and oppents of the bill would twist it that way. Good Idea but some of your political streams are still dammed up.
rrnut282 You'll have to come up with "someone to rescue". TVA was touted as a way to help lift an entire region out of poverty by bringing cheap electrical power to the people. Employing some of them to do the work was a bonus. (in reality, didn't they have to bring in experienced workers?) TVA also created navigable waters, benefitting shippers, watercraft owners, and recreational boaters. What you propose will employ a few thousand in the construction industry for a few years and benefit the railroads (who are seen as a "pain in the ss" by too many people) Unless you can get a lot of people to buy into the "rescue us from dependance on oil" angle, I don't see it happening. Nice thought, though.
You'll have to come up with "someone to rescue". TVA was touted as a way to help lift an entire region out of poverty by bringing cheap electrical power to the people. Employing some of them to do the work was a bonus. (in reality, didn't they have to bring in experienced workers?) TVA also created navigable waters, benefitting shippers, watercraft owners, and recreational boaters.
What you propose will employ a few thousand in the construction industry for a few years and benefit the railroads (who are seen as a "pain in the ss" by too many people) Unless you can get a lot of people to buy into the "rescue us from dependance on oil" angle, I don't see it happening. Nice thought, though.
Look at the benefit of one of the other projects built at the same time. Grand Coulee Dam is one of the largest hydroelectric dams in the world and with its bountiful energy output it built an Aluminum industry along the banks of the Columbia River that supply Boeing in Seattle with the Aluminum to build the world's airliners. At the same time it turned millions of acres of high desert into rich farmland producing almost everything from Apples to Wheat with irrigation.
The same can be said about Hoover Dam on the Colorado River just east of Las Vegas another of the projects of the Great Depression.
It was only after WW II that the RRs spent huge sums on repairing ROW in many cases almost rebuilding it completely. At the same time there was a race to dieselization and replacement passenger and freight equipment.
It is really only the past ten years that RRs have been able to work on and complete major improvements in the ROW such as the just completed third track over Cajon Pass to alleviate congestion, and the completion of the double tracking of the former Santa Fe mainline is now within sight. And the improvements in the Sunset route are continuing although I understand at a slower pace with the economic recession.
All that is needed is for the government to invest in electrification of the mainlines to creat jobs cut energy costs and eliminate much dependance on foreign oil. And maybe it is time once again to look at building that dreamed of RR to Alaska to develop the mineral deposits waiting for transportation to remove to the lower 48.
With the recent drop in oil prices, this would probably be impossible to get passed now. People in general think that was a one-time hiccup and now things will be fine again forever.
Unfortunately, by the time we decide to do what you propose (and yes it will eventually happen) it will be when oil prices are ridiculously high and it will cost a much higher amount to do than it would have been if we had had the foresight to build it now.
During the great depression major dams, waterways and the TVA were all built.
I would rather see a similar project involving the rails take place now. It would put an awful lot of people to work if the government was to undertake electrifying the major rail lines criscrossing the country and build a series of Nuclear Power plants at the same time to power them. Hundreds of thousands of jobs would be created and the rails would repay the government over the next thirty to forty years for the electrification. The Nuclear power plants would pay there own way within twenty to twenty-five years.
If we must bail out the big three automakers which seems to be a general consensus than lets improve the nations cheapest means of transportation at the same time. Costly yes, but I can think of no better time than at the present for a major project like electrification to take place. At the same time track improvements can be made to the rails to enhance the electrification.
At the same time improvements and additrional coal fired generating plants can be constructed and these two projects alone can cut our dependance on foreign oil by probably thirty percent.
If states want HSR passenger services than like California they should be willing to pay at least fifty percent of the cost. I personally think that California will not have much trouble selling the bonds for the first ten billion, probably much of it will be sold to a consortium of foreign HSR builders such as Alstom or maybe even the Japanese. After all if HSR takes off in California than in a few years it will be like a wildfire sweeping the land with city pairs of 500 miles or less all wanting there own HSR services.
I am not convinced that long distance passenger trains will play a very important part in the future of rail travel just as it is not that important a part of it today. It seems to me that segment of the market is better served by air travel.
In the past I have been a major supporter of long distance trains but when I see a single daily train passing through flyover country I have come to the reasonable assumption that kind of service is not going to ever make a reasonable return on investment. The only two western services I could make a reasonable argument for would be the Empire Builder possibly the Coast Starlight. When I look outside and sees days like the last few where fog has slowed traffic by so much I can see where trains like the Coast Starlight may be necessary. Probably the same is true where extreme winter conditions dictate as well. The airlines have shown they are not interested in serving the smaller communities so maybe we should be looking at an Air, bus, train solution to our overall transportation needs and treat each equally.
Enough for now
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