UP Turbines

[Anonymous]

Ok. Another question. I know all about the turbines and they are also my favorite Locos of all time. the only thing I dont know is if any where preserved. Also, does anyone think it would be great to see a UP turbine in operation again just for excursions or special services or whatever?
I know they where a maintenece headache and I know they are not cheap to run but I think it would be great to see one in action again just on special occasions.

[Anonymous]

I don't know if it will ever happen, but that shure would be awsome !!! I am not old enough to have seen them in operation, but I've always wondered what it would be like to se one of those up close polling a freight uphill in run 8.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wisser

I don't know if it will ever happen, but that shure would be awsome !!! I am not old enough to have seen them in operation, but I've always wondered what it would be like to se one of those up close polling a freight uphill in run 8.

Chad [:D]

I agree. [:p]

I have the Pentrex tape with them on it. I bet they were loud. Yes, it would be neat to see one run again even if it was only for an excursion every now and then. [;)]

[jchnhtfd]

I believe they were all scrapped, but I could be wrong... happened before.

[M636C]

Guys,

Certainly, the great majority of the GE turbines were scrapped, since their trucks were used under the GE U50 locomotives, the U50s getting the B-B+B-B trucks from the single unit turbines and the U50Cs each getting the trucks from one half of the two unit turbines. However, I thought that at least one set of the two unit turbines lasted for some time after the most were scrapped (about the time the U50Cs appeared). Whether these remain, and made it into a museum, I don't know.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Now that I think about it there is (was) one in the museum in Ogden Utah. I have pictures of it in my collection. I wish I could post them but I can't. It was under a train shed at the Ogden Union Station along with a DD40AX and a GP9 If I remember right.

[Anonymous]

Oh guys, I have a little tidbit of info for you. There is one turbine left that I know of and thats in a museum in Ogden Ut., at the west base of Sherman Hill. I think that it's a BB+BB config. Either a smooth side or a veranda

[kenneo]

Ogden is at the base of Weber Canyon, not Sehrman. Sherman is between Laramie and Cheyan (that's pronounced SHeeeeeeeeeeeeAYnnnnnnnnn) in that Wyoming Territory.

[Anonymous]

The Big Blow´s - Super Turbines - 8500 GTEL´s are my favorite locomotive.

Two Super Turbines - 8500 GTEL - are preserved: 16 and 26

No. 16 is in Union Ill. 16 was sold to Nielsen Enterprises, Ogden, Utah in August 1971, then resold to Continental Leasing Group; sold to G. F. Bean Co., New Orleans, La, in 1975. Stored on UP in Salt Lake City, Utah until moved to Kansas City on 29 March 1979; donated to Illinois Railway Museum, Union, Ill.

No. 26 is in Ogden. 26 was sold to Continental Leasing Group, 15 September 1971, shipped to Intercontinental Engineering Co., Riverside, Mo.; donated to Ogden Union Station Museum, Ogden, Utah in July 1987.

All other Turbines (4500 GTEL Standards No. 51 - 60 and 4500 GTEL Verandas No. 61 - 75) were scrapped. The two axle trucks were then used under U50´s.

To see one of this back on the tracks would be great !!!

BTW - I think the two auxilary tenders behind UP 844 and 3985 are former Turbine tenders !!!

[tup][wow][wow]

Bringing back a Super Turbine back to life would be impossible because the turbines are in the baddest possible condition - because of the high fuel consumption and the bad turbine condition the Big Blows were retired between 1969 to 1971 - and a new one will be to expensive.

[edblysard]

Yes, the aux tender behind 3985 is from a Turbine, although it was from a older steam locomotive before that.

Ed

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The turbines sounded the same in any notch above Idle since they always ran at full speed regardless of throttle setting.

[UPTRAIN]

There are about 10 turbines preserved. I saw 1 in operation on Sherman Hill in around 1960 or so...They were loud and were hated by shop crews as much as they were loud. It would be neat to see one operate again. Since they were early GEs...woulden't they have a 16 notch throttle? They would also be expensive to run because of the #6 fuel oil or Bunker C. It is what asphaut is made with.

[UPTRAIN]

The one in Ogden is like the 2 unit kind with 8,500 horsepower. Also there are ones all over the United States.

[espeefoamer]

I saw the turbines twice,as a child.When I saw the first one,I didn't know what it was.It made a strange whooshing sound,and had a tender.I found out later through an article in Trains.I saw the second turbine knowing what it was.[:)]
It would be awsome seeing one run again,but it will never happen for a variety of reasons.

[Anonymous]

Sorry guys,

Only 2 Big Blows are preserved! When A.J. Wolff in his book about UP´s turbines - Whiters Publishing - 2001 - is right, and I think so!

The #18 (sorry, wrote 16 before) in Union, Ill. and the #26 in Ogden, Utah. That´s all !!!

In Don Stracks roster also the 14 an the 16 were donated for Union but there is only one or I need new glasses!

And the 8 axle B+B-B+B´s are all scapped - 100 % sure, UP scrapped all car bodies at Omaha and Cheyenne. Trucks and bolsters are used under U25B,U50 and under the ALCO C855´s !

Details:
Standard´s: (#51 - 60)
The truck assemblies from UP 51-56 were reconditioned by UP at Omaha in 1962 and shipped to GE-Erie for use on U25Bs; the car bodies were scrapped by UP at Omaha and Cheyenne.
The truck and bolster assemblies from UP 57-60 were reconditioned by UP at Omaha in 1963 and 1964 and shipped to GE-Erie for use on the U50s; the car bodies were scrapped by UP at Omaha and Cheyenne.
Veranda´s: (#61 - 75)
The truck and bolster assemblies from UP 61-68, 71-73, 75 (12 units) were reconditioned by UP at Omaha in 1963 and 1964 and shipped to GE-Erie for use on the U50s. The car bodies were scrapped by UP at Omaha and Cheyenne.
The truck and bolster assemblies from UP 69, 70, and 74 (three units) were reconditioned by UP at Omaha in 1964 and shipped to Alco-Schenectady for use on the C855s. The car bodies were scrapped by UP at Omaha and Cheyenne.

[M636C]

Ulrich,

Don't worry, I believe you!

Another question comes to mind. There were 26 single unit Turbines, 50-75 including the unsold prototype, and 26 U50s were built for UP and SP, so by definition no single unit Turbines still have their span bolsters. Presumably other standard AAR Type B trucks replaced those used under UP U25s. So did UP sell two sets of trucks to SP?

There were 30 two unit turbines and 40 U50C units, so enough trucks for ten two unit Turbines remained. Two of these are preserved.

But only Twin Unit turbines could still exist in complete form.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Hi Peter,

I think they sell them not!!

But it´s a good question!

When Don Strack is right the spanbolstersets of 19 B+B -B+B 4.500 hp turbines (4 Standard) and all 15 Veranda´s) were used for new U50´s , so 4 U50 became new trucks.
The U25B´s are built at the same time as the U50´s.

[M636C]

Ulrich,

While the actual trucks from the turbines might not have been used (they were standard trucks) the span bolsters would probably have been used, because they weren't needed under the U25s, and they wouldn't have been scrapped, and then new items to the same design built.

If UP traded the whole Turbine back to GE, GE might have taken only the parts they needed, and let UP sell the remainder for scrap!

But I would be surprised if new span bolsters were built for the SP U50s while UP scrapped theirs!

Peter

[passengerfan]

Having witnessed turbines in operation and listened to the high pitched whine, I am sure crews didn't miss them when they were retired. They were impressive to watch especially as they crossed Wyoming with solid fruit blocks. Remember seeing one leaving Cheyenne and as it passed under the street overpass must have fried a couple of dozen pigeons as it was raining dead birds for what seemed a couple of minutes after it passed. The UP mainline across wyoming before Interstate 80 was completed alongside old U.S. 30 was a trainwatchers paradise. Have seen the one at Ogden depot brings back many fond memories of when they were operational.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Ulrich,

While the actual trucks from the turbines might not have been used (they were standard trucks) the span bolsters would probably have been used, because they weren't needed under the U25s, and they wouldn't have been scrapped, and then new items to the same design built.

If UP traded the whole Turbine back to GE, GE might have taken only the parts they needed, and let UP sell the remainder for scrap!

But I would be surprised if new span bolsters were built for the SP U50s while UP scrapped theirs!

Peter

I looked in my best book about UP´s Turbines - written by A.J. Wolff, published in 2001 - yesterday.
He wrote also that the trucks of the 10 standard turbines were used under U25B´s and U50´s.

Spanbolster / truck sets from 12 retired Verandas were used under U50´s and the truck / spanbolster sets of the remaining three Verandas were used under the three Alco C855´s !!!

Possible that GE took the spanbolsters that were without trucks and add new trucks to them.

When I count right the UP became 26 8 axle spanbolster equipped locomotives when the 4500 hp were retired - 23 U50 and 3 Alco C855. Add the three SP´s and you will find out that GE must built new spanbolster so or so!

[Anonymous]

Did Turbains run to Omaha?

DOGGY

[UPTRAIN]

I thought the farest east they went was Cheyenne. And the farthest west was ogden. I don't know...I lived 5 states away. Look at Pentrex's movie on the turbines.

[M636C]

Ulrich,

The trucks could have come from Alco FAs or any other units being retired that had that truck design (but mainly Alcos, because I think Baldwins with Westinghouse motors used longer wheelbase trucks).

But I think that all the original span bolsters would have been used, and as you say, UP had enough units to use one more set than they owned originally.

Perhaps if we check the design of pilot on the SP U50s, they might look different, indicating that they were new! The only U50 I have ever seen was an SP unit, at Colton, running in MU with a DD35 (and nothing else). I was surprised!

The Alco C-855 was an interesting design in that the fuel tank was made as part of the frame. The only other US locomotives with this feature were the C-430 and the H-643 (as far as I know). The DL-560, mainly used in India also has this design feature.

That doesn't affect the span bolsters on the C-855, however.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Peter,

Who knows why UP made decisssions in the 1960´s, near 40 years ago.

When A.J. Wolff and Don Strack write that the spanbolsters of three Verandas were used for the three Alco C855 I think that´s right.
And they wrote also that the gasturbine trucks were also used for new U25B.
Don Strack made a fantastic research with his UP roster. And A.J.s book is also based on good informations.

Is it possible that you made a mistake with the spanbolsters ?
GE (or Alco) must built a new pair of spanbolsters for UP because 25 gasturbines are not enough for 26 U50 and C855 !!!

In the mid 60´s the UP ordered 23 U50 and 3 Alco C855.
Brings us to 26 diesels built with spanbolsters of 25 Gasturbines you need a 26rd pair.

Add the three SP U50 and you see that GE must built 4 new pairs!!!

And to DOGGY: Gasturbines in Omaha are possible - The setup was made at the Omaha Shops when GE delivered them. GE built them at Erie and so Omaha (Council Bluffs) is the point nearest by Erie.

I know this for the Big Blows because GE delivered them separate. In A.J. Wolff´s book are some pictures of Big Blows when delivered: only a A unit, a A unit BEHIND the B unit and without tenders.
Logical because the tenders were rebuilt by UP. UP took the single units out of the freight trains in Council Bluffs and bring them to the Omaha Shop. There the units were coupled together "correct" and at last the there rebuilt tender was added. So the first run of a gasturbine was sure westward from Omaha or Council Bluffs.

BTW: I don´t know details about a bunkeroil / class C oil refuelingstation in Omaha.

[M636C]

Ulrich,

You aren't counting Turbine No 50 the double ended prototype which ran in UP colours. When that was scrapped there was one more pair of span bolsters and trucks available. There were 26 BB+BB Turbines and 26 U50s including the SP units, so only three new sets of span bolsters.

An interesting point is that No 50 had streamlined pilots on each end. I wonder if there was ever a U50 or C855 with streamlined pilots on each end? Or maybe one of them went to an SP unit and an extra rear end bolster built.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Peter,

I count the 50 !!!

The 50 was scrapped in Erie at the time when GE built the 10 Standard´s.
A.J. Wolff wrote that he think that the trucks and the spanbolsters are used under one of the Standard Turbines. So four new sets of span bolsters!
If this is true: One set of spanbolsters was used under three engines.

And to Doggy for a second time:
I had looked for the photodescriptions in A.J. Wolffs book yesterday evening.
Sorry, Turbines could be seen in Omaha regular and not only for the setup!
The farest east point that all types of Turbines reach in regular service was Council Bluffs. 15 to 20% of the photos were taken in Council Bluffs.

The farest west was Ogden exept one picture of 57 when converted to propane fuel. Was take between Las Vegas and LA.

[M636C]

Ulrich,

GE sometimes take a very long time to cut things up. The prototype U25s, called XP24.1, hung around at Erie for years afterwards, the last being only cut up in the 1990s, I think. I would be surprised if they recycled much from 50 into the first batch of production units. If they did, there would still be a unit with front pilots at both ends, which would be worth looking for.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Peter,

all Standards have the same design for the pilots, possible GE rebuilt the spanbolsters of 50! I think that such a rebuilt is no big deal.

[M636C]

Ulrich,

It would have been much easier just to build two rear end span bolsters to match the two front units from No 50, whenever they used those.

One of the really wierd things that happened about then was all but one of the DD35As having GE 752 motors, rather than EMD motors. That meant that the DD35A units had the same motors as the turbines, as well as the C-855s and U50s.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Peter,

I think it´s to long ago, so we will never find out what was happened.

Yes, I know that only one DD35A - the last one #84 - was equipped with EMD electromotors.

More details - from Don Stracks excelent UP roster:
a. UP 70-83 were built using reconditioned GE 752 traction motors (with 74:18 gear ratio) from trade-in Alco FA and FB units. EMD used the designation 752E20A for these reconditioned traction motors.
UP 84 was built using the reconditioned EMD D67B1 traction motors from wrecked trade-in UP GP9 159 and was equipped with 62:15 gearing.
b. UP 71, 73, 74, 80, and 81 were originally equipped with 79:24 high speed gear ratio; later changed to 74:18 gear ratio.

But I don´t know which engine spend the other four motors for #84!!!! Possible that engines were new.