sandiego wrote: Although it would seem otherwise, there isn't a tremendous amount of traffic moving TC-KC (on any railroad), and there never was either, compared with TC-Chicago or KC-Chicago. It's respectable traffic but still it's less than on other corridors.Kurt Hayek
Although it would seem otherwise, there isn't a tremendous amount of traffic moving TC-KC (on any railroad), and there never was either, compared with TC-Chicago or KC-Chicago. It's respectable traffic but still it's less than on other corridors.
Kurt Hayek
There is a lot more traffic on the Spine today. CN and CP to southern destinations, as well as grain every day, and coal north. Ethanol twice a week on average, probably more now.
The UP now has that route, and it is a favorite with CP in the CamAM corridor, as well as ethanol traffic. The 112 pound rail is slowly going away, and more CTC is being added. Crew change points are St. Paul, Mason City, and Des Moines. South of Des Moines, the Spine is directional running south. Northbound traffic comes via the Falls City sub to Omaha, then east to the Spine. It allows far more capacity.
There will never be the capacity to run Amtrak on the Spine. Same goes for Intermodal.
The IC&E route cannot compete with UP's Spine. You end up adding an extra day of transit from Mason City for example to KC.
Not wanting to be argumentative (just a friendly debate), but I'm looking at a Yahoo! Maps hybrid image on the proposed Union - Melbourne connector line, and Union, IA is west of the Iowa River. The M&StL main ran through the center of Union with the river approx. 4500 ft. to the east (the railroad ran actually SE through town) and crossed the Iowa between Union & Liscomb, then crossed it again south of Albion. The proposed line would cross the CNW main and their branch as you describe, but bridging those lines would be easier outside the more populated Marshalltown area. But I don't see that another bridge over the Iowa River to accomplish that almost straight north-south connection would be needed (over some of the tributary creeks yes - I can see that).
I like debating stuff that never happened.
WIAR-
Not to sound rude- but looking at photos from 1995 wouldn't really help illustrate how crowded the MSTL-CNW-CGW crossing in Marshalltown was. By that time the diamonds had been removed- the MSTL from the northwest by then just curved in and connected to the CNW main. The CGW crossing was totally obliterated as the CNW reconfigured the interlocker and the new 3rd Street overpass was built, replacing the spot where the CGW line came in along the CNW main with a long yard lead that ran into the former MSTL yard. The CGW "connector" that you see coming in from the north is most likely the leftover stub of CGW main that was left for a while as an industry track. Beyond the 3rd street overpass the CGW main was left in west of town as a long siding (by 1995- used only to store cars) and accessed by two new switches the CNW installed.
At the time when the CGW was still around there were only 2 overpasses over the tracks- both spanned the CNW and MSTL yards- those were Center Street (Hwy 14) and 3rd Avenue. It wasn't until later on that the third overpass was completed on 3rd street further west next to the interlocking. In the 70s when the 3 railroads still crossed there- 3rd street's crossing ran almost right over the top of the interlocker. The CNW and CGW paralleling out of town to the west could have almost been mistaken for a 3 track mainline, save for the CNW's big pole line set between them.
The CGW's story in Marshalltown is a rather interesting one- since it was the last of the 3 railroads to arrive town- they were not afforded the most ample or spacious ROW through town. As the story goes the city didn't really want the CGW running through town, essentially telling them they didn't have the room where CGW wanted to go- so one day (I think it was a Sunday) without warning the CGW's track layers showed up and pretty much layed their tracks down right on top of Nevada Ave one afternoon circumventing the city's wishes (North Western Lines had a good article about that little stunt). On the west side of Nevada Ave where the CGW spilled out- they snaked across the CNW and MSTL on an interlocking in the midst of a tight "S" curve coming off the Avenue (by the lumberyard)- then sidling up against the CNW out of town.
If this short connection had been built at Marshalltown- no new Iowa River bridge would have been needed either. The Iowa River runs across the north side of town, then dips southeasterly around town on the east side (CNW crosses it between M'town and Quarry). There is a trio of smaller creeks in town but where I'd see the connection being built they'd not needed any major bridges, just an annoying climb over the valley ridges created by the creeks. The MSTL main stayed on the south side of the Iowa River after crossing it south of Albion- so if you did build a Melbourne-Union connection, an Iowa River bridge would be needed. Inasmuch- the Union-Melbourne connection would have been even more hill-and-dale than a short connector at Marshalltown. Leaving Melbourne the CGW had just come off a high fill that spanned the MILW main line, a creek and a county road, after which the CGW turned northeasterly on a stiff curve, then diving into a series of cuts before picking up the Timber Creek valley which it followed into Luray. If the line did leave Melbourne- they'd not only have to cross three creek watershed valleys (Timber, Linn and Minerva)- but also the CNW main line and their Roland-Zearing branch as well. It doesn't seem feasible to assume this area would be any better to build a connector on (I'd run the connection into the south side of Albion, south of the river bridge if the connection was to come out of the Luray/Melbourne area).
Safe to say if a connection was built between the two had the CGW-MSTL combined- it most likely would have been a short connector at Marshalltown with an overpass over the CNW main and connecting to the MSTL's main south of their Iowa River bridge.
nordique72 wrote: WIAR- Actually to build a connection between the MSTL and the CGW on the west side of Marshalltown would have been a tremendous pain to achieve. The CGW did enter on the southwest side and paralleled the CNW main for a short time on the south side before crossing it at the exact same spot as where the MSTL crossed coming in from the north (at a southeasterly angle through a residential area). To make the two railroads connect- another pair of diamonds (or overpass) over the CNW main line would have been needed to connect the two lines, most likely a ways west of town where the CGW grade comes in from the south and begins to parallel the CNW main. After crossing the CNW- the new connection would have needed to head north cutting out of the valley the CGW was following, over a pair of ridges before dropping back down to connect with the MSTL's line in the valley they followed into Marshalltown. The topography on the west side of town isn't the best for hacking a new connection between the two railroads. Ironically back in the late 70s the CNW built a connector track on the east side of town between their main and the CGW's line which eliminated a needed back up move for trains arriving from the north off the CGW (and departing to the north likewise) that needed to get into the yard at Marshalltown- it also got the trains off the short segment of street trackage on the CGW main. You can see the remnants of this connection near South 18th Avenue and Main Street.
Actually to build a connection between the MSTL and the CGW on the west side of Marshalltown would have been a tremendous pain to achieve. The CGW did enter on the southwest side and paralleled the CNW main for a short time on the south side before crossing it at the exact same spot as where the MSTL crossed coming in from the north (at a southeasterly angle through a residential area). To make the two railroads connect- another pair of diamonds (or overpass) over the CNW main line would have been needed to connect the two lines, most likely a ways west of town where the CGW grade comes in from the south and begins to parallel the CNW main. After crossing the CNW- the new connection would have needed to head north cutting out of the valley the CGW was following, over a pair of ridges before dropping back down to connect with the MSTL's line in the valley they followed into Marshalltown. The topography on the west side of town isn't the best for hacking a new connection between the two railroads.
Ironically back in the late 70s the CNW built a connector track on the east side of town between their main and the CGW's line which eliminated a needed back up move for trains arriving from the north off the CGW (and departing to the north likewise) that needed to get into the yard at Marshalltown- it also got the trains off the short segment of street trackage on the CGW main. You can see the remnants of this connection near South 18th Avenue and Main Street.
I always thought there was more "elbow room" over there just west of the overpass - I'm looking at some pictures I took in 1995 in Marshalltown looking west. I can barely see the old M&StL coming in from the northwest and what was left of the CGW main on the right, with the M&StL yard to the left. I can't really see the point where the CGW crossed the CNW (too distant with another road overpass obscuring my view), and I can see some houses way off west of the M&StL's line to Albia. I can see a connecting track between the CGW main and the north track of the CNW main, again west of my position, connecting to the CNW north track just a little east of M&StL yard's west throat. There are I think 3 overpasses crossing the trackage in Marshalltown now, and I'm not sure what road I was on at the time. There's what looks to be lumber yard north of the CGW trackage.
Anyway - do you think it might've been more feasible to build a connecting line between the CGW and M&StL, say going north/south between Melbourne & Union? If they went that way (about 26 miles of new track through good Iowa farmland) they wouldn't have had to build another bridge over the Iowa River.
Re:
"Does anyone know which route the BN used or still uses between the Twin Cities to KC"?
When I worked at Northtown from 1989 to about 2002 the BN/BNSF ran KC traffic via the ex-GN to Willmar and Su City, then via ex-CBQ to Ashland and Lincoln, then to KC. This would include traffic from Head of the Lakes and some from Grand Forks area. West traffic and Grand Forks could also move via Dilworth and Breckenridge to Willmar; then added to N'town-Lincoln trains. I think that the traffic is still moving on the same routings.
Jeff, I'm also a die-hard CGW and M&StL fan as well as a CNW fan so it pains me to admit the RI was the far better route but after exploring all the routes and studying the track charts there's no doubt which line was better. Looking back now it seems a miracle the both the CGW and M&StL survived as long as they did.
CGW wrote: sandiego wrote:Overall the RI was the best. Track conditions may not have been as good as CBQ but the RI still had 112/115# rail on the entire route and CTC on a good portion with ABS on the rest. Definitely the best alignment, fewest curves, moderate grades, shortest distance. South of Trenton, Mo. the line was new construction dating from 1940's. RI kept the track in OK shape, CNW was able to move trains from CGW line to RI line right after they started operating the line after the Rock folded up. Also, CNW ran a lot of "detour" trains over the RI around 1973 when they were moving all the Russian grain and they made much better time on the RI. The CNW would have kept running on the RI but the ICC raised a ruckus and forced them to stop.That CGW was a joke south of Des Moines, curves and grades galore, 90# rail, too few and too short sidings, the tangled-up mess at St. Joe, the antique Mo. River bridge at Leavenworth with the ultra sharp 12 deg. curve on the west end, trackage rights on the MP from Leavenworth to KC, and a small, cramped yard in KC.The Rock seemed to get most of their traffic from the Soo, at least in the 1970's (Remember the Soo's "Rocky-Soo transfer from Shoreham to Inver Grove)?Kurt HayekEven though I am a die hard fan of the Gee Wiz, I have to agree that the CGW did not have a good route to KC. Back in the 50's the CGW looked into purchasing the Minneapolis-St Louis line primarly for the segment between Mason City and Marshalltown which would provide a much shorter route from the TC to KC by bypassing Oelwein and Waterloo. The only problem I would see is there would need to be either a connection built at Marshalltown or a power run around procedure would need to be done because there was no wye connection.According to my sources, after the CNW purchased the RI Spine Line, the CNW ran both the RI and the CGW KC lines like a double track line for a short time while the RI line was being rebuilt. I believe the CGW line was used for south bound trains and the RI line was used for northbound trains. At that time, a tremendous among of grain traffic was moving south to KC.Does anyone know which route the BN used or still uses between the Twin Cities to KC?Jeff
sandiego wrote:Overall the RI was the best. Track conditions may not have been as good as CBQ but the RI still had 112/115# rail on the entire route and CTC on a good portion with ABS on the rest. Definitely the best alignment, fewest curves, moderate grades, shortest distance. South of Trenton, Mo. the line was new construction dating from 1940's. RI kept the track in OK shape, CNW was able to move trains from CGW line to RI line right after they started operating the line after the Rock folded up. Also, CNW ran a lot of "detour" trains over the RI around 1973 when they were moving all the Russian grain and they made much better time on the RI. The CNW would have kept running on the RI but the ICC raised a ruckus and forced them to stop.That CGW was a joke south of Des Moines, curves and grades galore, 90# rail, too few and too short sidings, the tangled-up mess at St. Joe, the antique Mo. River bridge at Leavenworth with the ultra sharp 12 deg. curve on the west end, trackage rights on the MP from Leavenworth to KC, and a small, cramped yard in KC.The Rock seemed to get most of their traffic from the Soo, at least in the 1970's (Remember the Soo's "Rocky-Soo transfer from Shoreham to Inver Grove)?Kurt Hayek
Even though I am a die hard fan of the Gee Wiz, I have to agree that the CGW did not have a good route to KC. Back in the 50's the CGW looked into purchasing the Minneapolis-St Louis line primarly for the segment between Mason City and Marshalltown which would provide a much shorter route from the TC to KC by bypassing Oelwein and Waterloo. The only problem I would see is there would need to be either a connection built at Marshalltown or a power run around procedure would need to be done because there was no wye connection.
According to my sources, after the CNW purchased the RI Spine Line, the CNW ran both the RI and the CGW KC lines like a double track line for a short time while the RI line was being rebuilt. I believe the CGW line was used for south bound trains and the RI line was used for northbound trains. At that time, a tremendous among of grain traffic was moving south to KC.
Does anyone know which route the BN used or still uses between the Twin Cities to KC?
Jeff
I wouldn't think that the connection at Marshalltown would've been too difficult, since the CGW main entered Marshalltown from the southwest, crossed the CNW east-west main and the M&StL entered from the northwest and crossed the CGW main first, then the CNW main over there west of the Hwy 14 overpass.
A few years earlier, M&StL/Wabash.
Old M&StL freight tables show the connection. Does anybody know if it was much used?
Strictly in terms of alignment and geography the former RI "Spine Line" would have to get the nod on that front; hopefully one day in the not too far off future it'll host Amtrak service between the Twin Cities and Kansas City where it is sorely needed.
However, despite it's seemingly "straight-shot" alignment, that doesn't always tell the whole story. Rather, it's how you can move trains on a consistent basis. The Milwaukee Road, especially after the segment between River Junction (La Crescent) and Marquette was rebuilt in 1981, did an admirable job of moving trains in this corridor.
I assume you are referring to freight traffic...as by mid 60's there wasnt much passenger traffic moving between the two points.
In 1964, Rock carded two passenger trains 15/16 and 17/18. The Twin Star Rocket (17-18) ran on to Ft Worth. The 479 miles between Mpls and KC was run in a respectable 10 hours. It carried a parlor lounge car, sleeper, diner, and coaches, pretty much the same as 15/16 except it had no diner or parlor car....long trip without meals. 15/16 only ran to Mpls/KC and was an overnight train, leaving both cities at 9pm and arrival at 9am....no doubt carrying considerable mail.
I have no idea about freight volumes. I would guess there would have been some grain movements between the markets, but not sure about anything else.
ed
To set the time period (for selfish reasons - the era most interesting to me), let's say it's the mid-to-late 1960's...
Who, in terms of track condition, operating speeds, efficiency of movement, etc. etc. had the best route between the Twin Cities and Kansas City out of these railroads: MILW, ROCK, CGW and CBQ?
I always assumed the ROCK had the better route since it was geographically more direct. To me the CBQ and MILW both seemed to have more "roundabout" routes since they hugged the Mississippi River. The CGW's route took them through St. Joseph and as I understand it they had 4 mandatory stops on their way through that city.
Looking at today's operations, it certainly seems like the MILW and CBQ must've had the advantage, since the CGW's route was given-up by the CNW once they acquired the ROCK's "Spine Line", but that line doesn't see the same level of traffic BNSF and apparently ICE host now on their rails.
Inquiring minds want to know...
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