Dash 9?

[M636C]

As Ulrich has said, there are now a number of ex CN M420W units operating in the USA (as are some ex CN GP40s, some converted to passenger units for Boston suburban service). This reflects the effects of NAFTA. But MLW only sold the P&W units new in the USA, and even P&W bought new GE units later!

Peter

[Anonymous]

Peter your right!

The LRC´s being the last MLW´s. And the plant is now Alsthom´s facility.

But you will see many Montreal built M420´s, former CN`s with the canadian style wide cab, now running on secondary lines.

[M636C]

No,

At least, not as the same organisation! Montreal stopped building locomotives more than ten years ago, the last Canadian units being the VIA LRCs (I think).

Montreal was very successful in the export market, and many African countries still use MX series locomotives, from Morocco to Kenya and Uganda. A number of them are still used in Spain and Greece as well, but possibly not for much longer. There were a number of new locomotives built for Mexico and there were TWO units sold new to the Providence and Worcester (which used US-built Alco engines and GE electrical equipment, so they only had to import the bare shell as far as US Customs was concerned).

GE took over MLW and built the 84 Dash8 40CM units there between 1990 and 1996. Changes in trade laws meant they they no longer needed to build locomotives in Canada, and they closed the plant.

I'm not sure, but I think AMT now uses the facility for rebuilding EMD and DD-GM locomotives - can anyone confirm that?

[broncoman]

So is Montreal still in business. Did any other railroads besides a couple of Canadian ones own a M series?

[M636C]

Guys,

There are new threads starting asking the same questions, so I'll stop waiting for Railpac to post Alco designations and put in my own ideas.

Firstly, Alco has had at least three different ways of describing a given locomotive, but not all were used on all locomotives.

The first method was to treat a diesel as if it was a steam locomotive. Alco's steam designations were arranged

wheel arrangement
type letter (S for Superheated, C for compound)
the locomotive weight

So this, as applied to a US Army Consolidation gave 280-S-160

When applied to a diesel switcher, of the type known as "High Hood"

you had 404-DL-250 (or something like that)

where 404 meant two two axle trucks (and no coupled wheels), and 250 000 lb weight.

Later switchers and road switchers had four digit specification numbers with an E prefix. This was a second method.

Like E-1661

When they started to build road locomotives, they started a new system at DL-100, where DL meant diesel locomotive and 100 was a model number. This is really a continuation of the second method, because locomotives with DL numbers didn't get E numbers and vice versa.

The first design built was a DL-103b, a single 2000 HP unit for Rock Island. Later units were DL-105, DL-107 and DL-109. Cabless units were DL-110. These were equivalent to EMD's early E units.

When they started building Freight Cab units, they started a new series at DL-200, which included the "Black Maria" prototypes, and the post WW II 1500 and 1600 HP cab units. These later became known as FA and FB units, (for Freight A unit and Freight B unit) and in Canada, there were FPA-4 and FPB-4 cab and booster units, where P indicated heating equipment for Passenger trains.

The "F" and similar designations represented a third method of classification.

The post WWII passenger units started a new series at DL-300, and it has been said that Santa Fe three unit loco 51L+51A+51C was originally model DL-300 and DL-301 for the booster unit. Most of these units were model DL-304 and DL-305, but became known later as PA-1, PB-1, PA-2 and PB-2.

The post war switchers (with E series numbers) became known as S-1, S-2, S-3 and so on and the Road Switchers (also with E series numbers) became RS-1, RS-2, RS-3 and so on. If a road switcher had three axle trucks each with two motors, it became an RSC-2 or RSC-3. If it had three axle trucks with all axles powered, they became RSD-4 and RSD-5.

These S, RS, RSC, RSD designations continued, but later switchers and road switchers also had DL numbers in the 400, 600 and 700 series, and export units had DL numbers in the 500 series as well as FPA and RS series designations.

There was no clear pattern in the allocation of RS series numbers in particular (but each type only had one RS number).

In the 1960s, Alco introduced a new designation system for locomotives for use in North America called the Century Series. These locomotives had features similar to the General Electric U series, and had a pattern to the classification. This was really a continuation of the second method of classification, like the "DL" numbers. It ran:

C for Century series

4 for four axle
6 for six axle

followed by two numbers for the horsepower

So we had C-420, C-425, C-628, C-636 and so on.

Some of these locomotives also were known as DL-628 and DL-636.

When Alco ceased building, Montreal continued using the "Century" system, but later locomotives had "M" prefixes and were known as "M-line" locomotives. Later Montreal Exports had MX prefixes as in MX-620.

That should do for now.

I've left out a lot of detail, but I think this is largely correct!

Any further questions?

Peter

[Anonymous]

BL20-2: EMD´s search in new working fields - General overhauls

The three BL20-2 are rebuilt from former BN GP9´s (first owner of the GP9 are CB&Q, GN).

The 567 C engine was turbocharged, same way like the engine in a GP20, . The electric and electronic was upgraded into Dash 2 standard. Including an AC alternator. Cab and hood were built new.

No RR has an interrest in BL20-2´s so they give them into EMD´s leasing fleet.
So the "20" and "-2" are clear. EMD says that the BL20-2 created on the heritage of BL2 as a cheap and like new workhorse!

[M636C]

Willy.

It so happens that I checked the time it took to write that post. It was just over an hour (I type slowly). It was Friday morning here, and I don't work on Fridays. The only other things I had to do that day were to deliver some locomotive drawings to a company making locomotive models and talk with a rail magazine editor about some articles, both of which I finished with time to spare.

But I didn't expect that it would look that complicated or take up that much space. I had to check the "Field Guide" a couple of times while writing it. But it is something that hasn't been explained before, as far as I know, and once I'd started, I felt I should finish it. I'd thought about the subject, but hadn't made any notes.

I might try to expand the posting into a full article with illustrations, which might make it easier to understand, and more meaningful to railfans.

Peter

[Willy2]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Guys,

I think I should try to explain the numbers in EMD model codes, as briefly as I can while pointing out that export numbers have a different meaning to USA numbers.

Initially, up until the end of the Second World War, the numbers in EMD model codes were basically just sequential (although F units tended to use mainly only odd numbers, F-3, F-5, F-7)

With the F-7, companion models were introduced using the same engine (16-567B) and Generator (D12), the roadswitchers GP-7 and SD-7. These were all 1500HP.

With the introduction of the 567C engine (a major change in engine design), these units became F-9, GP-9, SD-9 (and possibly by coincidence the passenger unit became E-9).The freight units were now 1750HP, and the E had two 1200HP engines.

With the introduction of Turbocharging, the numbers became based on horsepower, but freight cabs had pretty much gone away. So for the blower engine units, we had GP18 and SD18 (1800 HP) but GP20 (2000 HP) and SD24 (2400 HP) for the turbo engine units. These all had 567D engines.

Then GE introduced the U25, and the replacement for the GP20, which was initally to be called GP22, (for 2250 HP) became the GP30 which, despite claims by EMD was just to have a bigger number than GE for sales purposes.

The next generation introduced the so-called "Spartan" body style, and were the turbo GP35 and SD35 (2500 HP), while the blower units GP28 and SD28 had 1800 HP. So there was a sort of linking to the horsepower, where the model number was ten more than the horsepower (in hundreds). Double engine units, DD35, were also built.

The change to the larger bore 645E engine continued the numerical relationship for the turbo engines, or almost so. The 3000HP units became GP40 and SD40, and the twenty cylinder 3600HP units became the SD45. The blower units, now 2000HP, had their numbers increased by ten over their 1800HP predecessors, becoming GP38 and SD38. A new locomotive range, with a twelve cylinder turbocharged engine of 2250HP was introduced giving the GP39 and SD39 (because their power was between that of the 38 and 40 series). These designations carried on through the Dash2 series.

Partly through problems experienced with the 20 cylinder engines, a new 645F3 engine was built producing 3500HP, in the GP50 and SD50, later giving 3600HP in the SD50. No blower type 645F engines were made, so the "38" series continued, but a few turbo 12-645F engines powered GP49 models (2800 HP).

With the introduction of the longer stroke 710 G engine, the numbers went up again to GP60 and SD60 (3800HP) and GP59 and F59PH(I) (3000HP). Again no new blower engines were built, and the "38" series continued.

The next step was increased power from the 710 engine, and we saw the SD70, (4000HP) SD75 (4300HP at 950rpm) and SD80 (5000HP from a 20-710G3B). No further road GP units were introduced. An SD90 using the new four stroke 265H engine was introduced, but has not been fully successful.

Right, now you have understood all that, it worked quite differently for export units!

EMD had a different system for export units, more like the GE descriptions. The model letters related to body type. A and B meant streamlined carbody units, G was a normal roadswitcher and J meant a double end unit which could be either a carbody unit or a hood with cabs each end. There were other codes, but these were the main types.

The number related to the number of cylinders, 8 12 or 16 (although there were some 6 cylinder exports, mainly to Australia)

There was often but not always a suffix indicating number of axles, B or C

So streamlined cab units in Australia were model A16C, effectively an F9 on SD9 trucks.

However, these numbers applied to 567 engines only, and when later engines were introduced, EMD increased the numbers by ten each time, as follows:

567 engines number of cylinders
645E engines number of cylinders plus 10
645F engines number of cylinders plus 20
710G engines number of cylinders plus 30

That's as far as it's gone (so far).

There was an obvious problem, that a 6-645 would have the same number as a 16-567 but this was overcome by continuing to use "6" for these units.

"T" was added for turbocharged engines

So we had, for example

G8C was an eight cylinder six axle roadswitcher of 875HP

GL18C was an eight cylinder 645 six axle roadswitcher of 1000HP (L=lightweight)

GT-18MC was a turbo 12-645E3 six axle roadswitcher of 1500HP (M=modified)

GT26C was a turbo 16-645E3 six axle roadswitcher of 3000HP (almost an SD40)

JT42 CWR was a turbo 12-710G3B-ES boxcab of 3000HP (W= standard gauge)
(R refers to radial trucks) This is the British class 66.

If you've followed all that, you must be able to concentrate!

I'll try to clear up any confusion in following posts

Peter

I can concentrate well but not well enough to be able to understand everything that you said in that post! I understand it okay but you did kind of lose me there. You must have an awful lot of time on your hands to be able to put all of that down on what posting![8D]

Willy

[M636C]

Ulrich,

I did say MAINLY odd numbers. The "F5" was not an official designation, but I understand that it was applied (even inside EMD) to very early F7 units that used some F3 components, mainly electrical. These were built because new designs of equipment were not available in time.

It is interesting that there wasn't an "F-1" either! I was trying to show that there was a pattern to the numbering in the 1950s, which didn't apply earlier.

Perhaps I should have said that not all numbers were used and left it at that!

The point that I was trying to make was that domestic and export units used a different logic for the numbering, which should help people to understand the pattern.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Hi Peter,

The designations of F units are FT - F2 - F3 - F7 - F9!!!!!!!!

[M636C]

Dave,

The BL20-2 has always been a mystery to me for a number of reasons. It was proposed as an alternative to rebuilding of GP-9s, using the original frame and 567C engine. It has been described in different references as "turbocharged" and "supercharged". The drawings show what appears to be a standard turbocharged engine, as far as I can tell. Exactly why a turbocharger was fitted to raise the power to only 2000HP isn't clear, since a 567C could more cheaply be fitted with 645 power assemblies and adjusted to run at 900 rpm. However, the reduced fuel consumption from turbocharged engines might be the explanation. Since a GP20 also had a turbocharged 567D engine of 2000HP, that might explain the use of "20" as the model number. Therefore, "GP20-2" would sound reasonable as a model number. Perhaps "BL" was used to emphasise that this was still a relatively low powered locomotive, not a true "General Purpose" locomotive in current terms. Still, I have no inside information, and can only speculate with the limited information available. It is strange that a turbocharged engine would not have inertial filters on the air intake, although this might have been a cost saving measure to keep the rebuild price down.

Peter

[broncoman]

So where did the BL20-2 come from, even though it wasn't bought buy anyone. Why did EMD use BL instead of GP. Plenty of 20 something numbers left, or even a GP-38-2m? Sounds good.
BL20 just looked out of place in Diesel Locomotive field guide.

Anybody....Anybody.

Thanks

[M636C]

Guys,

I think I should try to explain the numbers in EMD model codes, as briefly as I can while pointing out that export numbers have a different meaning to USA numbers.

Initially, up until the end of the Second World War, the numbers in EMD model codes were basically just sequential (although F units tended to use mainly only odd numbers, F-3, F-5, F-7)

With the F-7, companion models were introduced using the same engine (16-567B) and Generator (D12), the roadswitchers GP-7 and SD-7. These were all 1500HP.

With the introduction of the 567C engine (a major change in engine design), these units became F-9, GP-9, SD-9 (and possibly by coincidence the passenger unit became E-9).The freight units were now 1750HP, and the E had two 1200HP engines.

With the introduction of Turbocharging, the numbers became based on horsepower, but freight cabs had pretty much gone away. So for the blower engine units, we had GP18 and SD18 (1800 HP) but GP20 (2000 HP) and SD24 (2400 HP) for the turbo engine units. These all had 567D engines.

Then GE introduced the U25, and the replacement for the GP20, which was initally to be called GP22, (for 2250 HP) became the GP30 which, despite claims by EMD was just to have a bigger number than GE for sales purposes.

The next generation introduced the so-called "Spartan" body style, and were the turbo GP35 and SD35 (2500 HP), while the blower units GP28 and SD28 had 1800 HP. So there was a sort of linking to the horsepower, where the model number was ten more than the horsepower (in hundreds). Double engine units, DD35, were also built.

The change to the larger bore 645E engine continued the numerical relationship for the turbo engines, or almost so. The 3000HP units became GP40 and SD40, and the twenty cylinder 3600HP units became the SD45. The blower units, now 2000HP, had their numbers increased by ten over their 1800HP predecessors, becoming GP38 and SD38. A new locomotive range, with a twelve cylinder turbocharged engine of 2250HP was introduced giving the GP39 and SD39 (because their power was between that of the 38 and 40 series). These designations carried on through the Dash2 series.

Partly through problems experienced with the 20 cylinder engines, a new 645F3 engine was built producing 3500HP, in the GP50 and SD50, later giving 3600HP in the SD50. No blower type 645F engines were made, so the "38" series continued, but a few turbo 12-645F engines powered GP49 models (2800 HP).

With the introduction of the longer stroke 710 G engine, the numbers went up again to GP60 and SD60 (3800HP) and GP59 and F59PH(I) (3000HP). Again no new blower engines were built, and the "38" series continued.

The next step was increased power from the 710 engine, and we saw the SD70, (4000HP) SD75 (4300HP at 950rpm) and SD80 (5000HP from a 20-710G3B). No further road GP units were introduced. An SD90 using the new four stroke 265H engine was introduced, but has not been fully successful.

Right, now you have understood all that, it worked quite differently for export units!

EMD had a different system for export units, more like the GE descriptions. The model letters related to body type. A and B meant streamlined carbody units, G was a normal roadswitcher and J meant a double end unit which could be either a carbody unit or a hood with cabs each end. There were other codes, but these were the main types.

The number related to the number of cylinders, 8 12 or 16 (although there were some 6 cylinder exports, mainly to Australia)

There was often but not always a suffix indicating number of axles, B or C

So streamlined cab units in Australia were model A16C, effectively an F9 on SD9 trucks.

However, these numbers applied to 567 engines only, and when later engines were introduced, EMD increased the numbers by ten each time, as follows:

567 engines number of cylinders
645E engines number of cylinders plus 10
645F engines number of cylinders plus 20
710G engines number of cylinders plus 30

That's as far as it's gone (so far).

There was an obvious problem, that a 6-645 would have the same number as a 16-567 but this was overcome by continuing to use "6" for these units.

"T" was added for turbocharged engines

So we had, for example

G8C was an eight cylinder six axle roadswitcher of 875HP

GL18C was an eight cylinder 645 six axle roadswitcher of 1000HP (L=lightweight)

GT-18MC was a turbo 12-645E3 six axle roadswitcher of 1500HP (M=modified)

GT26C was a turbo 16-645E3 six axle roadswitcher of 3000HP (almost an SD40)

JT42 CWR was a turbo 12-710G3B-ES boxcab of 3000HP (W= standard gauge)
(R refers to radial trucks) This is the British class 66.

If you've followed all that, you must be able to concentrate!

I'll try to clear up any confusion in following posts

Peter

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dough

While we are on the subject, what is "M" in C-30M.

I saw ex-UP now HLCX 588 today on a CSX line.

Thanks!

I think you mean C36M. The "M" means MODIFIED.

The HLCX 588 was built as ATSF C30-7 #8015.

All numbers: ATSF 8015 - GECX 8015 - GECX 581 -UP 588 - HLCX 588.

Rebuilt for UP into a C36Ms by Metro-East Industries, East St. Louis, Ill.or VMV Enterprises, Paducah, Ky..

3.750 hp instead of 3.000 hp.

[Anonymous]

Export codes ???
I wouldn't mind knowing more about that.

[M636C]

Mudchicken,

I assume you are talking about the White Pass and Yukon. I saw very similar units in Argentina, but the DL-535s were on 5'6" gauge and the shovelnoses (built with Cooper Bessemers, but rebuilt with Argentine built 251s) were on Metre gauge. I haven't travelled behind either, but did get to travel behind the unique DL-540s (DL-702s with DL-500 trucks), and GR-12s.

Maybe I should start explaining export codes!

Peter

[mudchicken]

For Willy2's benefit:

Oops!..We almost forgot about the "Mongeese"....EMD's BL-1 & BL2's....sort of fits in the evolutionary chain between the F's and the GP's..... only 59 built in the late 40's

BL = Branch Line (you'd know one if you saw one....slightly unique)[tup][tup]



now somewhat partial to DL-535E's having had the chance to ride behind them and their GE cousins with an 251 under the hood of either.[8D]

[Anonymous]

What? ALCo designations hard? actually their quite easy. I will post them later.

[Dough]

While we are on the subject, what is "M" in C-30M.

I saw ex-UP now HLCX 588 today on a CSX line.

Thanks!

[mudchicken]

Somebody gonna hit Willy2 with a photo quiz on identifying mongrels like the ATSF "Beep", SF30C & CF-7, PC/CR/ATK "DeWitt Geep"s, CNW/MKT "Buffaloes", Missouri Pacific GP-16's, Crandall Cabs, MK-TE 1500's, CRIP "Christine" DL-109M (just south of Willy @ Baldwin, KS), Mexican SLP Homebuilts and the like?

Where is the "Beep" (ATSF 1460) these days?

[Willy2]

Wow! Thanks for all of the great answers. All of the different symbols and letters make a lot more sense to me now than they did before!

Willy

[Anonymous]

Or Baldwin

[jchnhtfd]

If you folks think the EMD and GE model designations are confusing.... try ALCO and Montreal Locomotive Works!

[edblysard]

Next time the EMD service rep is down, I will ask him.
Or, next time UP leaves one in the yard, I will go look.
Could have sworn the last time we were testing them for EMD, the rep said they were EMD powered, but then again, I was having too much fun watching him turn green from all the start and stops a flat yard switch motor makes...
I can tell you this much, they are very, very good switch motors, load up fast, kick steady and hard, and stop on a dime.
Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigboy4015

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

You forgot to add that the E Units rode on 6 axel trucks, with the center axel an idler, or non motored axel.

The idea was to distribute the weight of the twin diesels and the assorted equipment evenly.

And, under license, Bosie Locomotive is now making a GP15 and GP 20, 1500 hp and 2000 hp.
In reality, they are the MK1500D, using EMD diesels instead of the cat.

Ed

Your shure that the engines in GP15 and 20 are GM´s?
I had read that GM12V170B15-T1 (GP 15) and GM16V170B20-T1 (GP20) are GM designations for CATERPILLAR engines!

[M636C]

Guys,

Firstly, I have to support Ulrich's contention regarding the Boise-built units. They all have Cat 3512 (GP15D) or Cat 3516 (GP20D). The Cat 35 series engines have 170mm bore cylinders, and are described as Ulrich indicates above. Perhaps the locomotives sold by EMD have the engines painted grey rather than yellow.

I also understand that the SD45T-2 and SD40T-2 designations were unofficial, and not recognised by EMD who described them simply as SD45-2 and SD40-2 (with modifications) respectively.

There were some variations in EMD model descriptions that were not widely known. FT originally stood for Fourteen Hundred Horsepower Twin Unit, since the prototypes were coupled by drawbars into pairs of A and B units. The first production units, built for Santa Fe, had knuckle couplers throughout, and these were initially described as model FS, for Fourteen Hundred Horsepower Single Units.

In my first posting, I should have indicated that GE initially only built four motor units for domestic USA use, and thus the U25 initially had no suffix letter. Export units always had the suffix, so the big units for Argentina were U18C, and after six motor units were introduced to the US market, they became U25C, and the four motor units became U25B.

I should have mentioned that four motor passenger units were built recently by both GE (P42DC) and EMD (F59PHI).

It is possible that "F" never really stood for "freight", but just meant a four motor cab unit, since the F40C and F40PH were always dedicated passenger units. Also, many Santa Fe F-3 and F-7 A units were dedicated passenger units, but were not "FP" units because they had no steam generator themselves, relying on steam generators fitted in the B units operated with them. It is possible that the attribution of the meaning "freight" to F units was only by enthusiasts based on the apparent use of most of these units.

Peter

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

You forgot to add that the E Units rode on 6 axel trucks, with the center axel an idler, or non motored axel.

The idea was to distribute the weight of the twin diesels and the assorted equipment evenly.

And, under license, Bosie Locomotive is now making a GP15 and GP 20, 1500 hp and 2000 hp.
In reality, they are the MK1500D, using EMD diesels instead of the cat.

Ed

Your shure that the engines in GP15 and 20 are GM´s?
I had read that GM12V170B15-T1 (GP 15) and GM16V170B20-T1 (GP20) are GM designations for CATERPILLAR engines!

[Anonymous]

Let's not forget the tunnel motors. Southern Pacific and D&RGW had versions of the SD-40 / 45 with special air intake built to run cooler in tunnels and snowsheads, and EMD used a T to designate these- SD40T-2 SD45T-2 .

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:
F for fourteen hundred horsepower
T for twelve hundred horsepower
S for six hundred horsepower

The are correct, however, over time, EMD applied different standings for these abbreviations, for example:

F evolved to stand for "F"reight (hence F unit, passenger versions had a P added ex: FP7, which signified "P"assenger)

T evolved to stand for "T"ransfer (used on TR1, TR2, 3, and so on, these were semi-permentaly coupled (drawbar) cow/calf switcher sets intended for transfer service)

S evolved to stand fo "S"witcher (used on all SC and SW switchers, the C stood for "C"ast frame (only very early units) and the W stood for "W"elded frame (SW1 and on)

[csxengineer98]

SD means specail dudty.....
GP means genneral perpouse...
they are an EMD desigation
dash 7
dash 8
and dash 9
are GE units..and the dash (which =s -) is for what decade the unit was designed....
a unit with the model number of CW-44-9AC means.... 6 axles...(C=6...B=4 on GE modles...)..W means wide body...( wide nose cab) 44 means the hores power of the unit rounded off to the neartest 100ths....and AC means AC traction...on csx they are the units that have the ligtning bolts under the cab windows on the sides..
EMD units that are wide cabs have an M after the model number.... (SD70Mac)
csx engineer