Cement ties & old houses?

[Anonymous]

Recently CSX installed a new turnout down the line from Harpers Ferry, near the town of Sandy hook. the houses and tracks are seperated by the towns one road. Citizens of the town are now saying that because the new 'concrete ties don't give like all the wood ones we've allways had' their 200 year old houses are being shifted from their foundations. they also say that the installation of the turnout, a new signal, and the fact that trains now stop at that signal are interruptin their sleep. Are these all valid arguments?[?][?]

[dknelson]

It is true that cement ties tend to distrubute train weight differently than wood ties do, and believe that the roadbed and subroadbed and ballast differs a bit if cement is used. The problem is also probably made worse if the ground is frozen.

Having said that, cement ties are used a lot in Europe where the houses are often a lot older than 200 years old. I suspect the real problem is that we are moving to an era of 125 ton cars up from 100 ton.
David Nelson

[mudchicken]

TrainH:

There is a similar phenomena going on here in Denver created by light rail moving the freight rail corridors for UP/DRGW and BNSF/ATSF together. If you go back into the old threads, there are several discussing concrete ties. In a nutshell, the concrete ties will transmit shock forces differently into the ground than a timber tie. The subgrade and the make-up of the local geology will come into play. The tonnage over the line has consolidated the "made fill" under the tracks over the years and the lack of "cushioning" by concrete ties may have affected the impact loading on the consolidated fill. If those old houses have stone/brick masonry foundations not connected to bedrock and the houses are not connected to the foundations (both common to old construction) the harmonic forces transmitted through the ground may have been altered. There are geotechical engineers that study the phenomena and can't arrive at the same answer for the problem. If you have houses built on old fills and weathered rock, you can have the same headaches that Californians have with earthquakes when old fills turn to jello and amplify forces instead of deaden them.

In Denver, the houses are 40 years old or less and the freight lines did not move over that much (stayed within their old R/W boundaries, tracks moved over laterally 50-75 feet) AND geologists + foundation engineers certified there would not be a problem - but the complaints persist. There appears to be an art and a science with this type of thing that has not been mastered yet. The railroads here were here first by a good 60-80 years. In Maryland that would not necessarilly be the case.

The "New" switch begs the question " is this a siding switch, a crossover, or a conecting track to..."? The switch on its own is not a problem, what it's attached to could be, especially because it has control signals attached to it. Europe does not have the loading problems that we have here in North America, so forces transmitted into concrete ties by lighter trains is not that big of an issue. Engines waiting on the signals may be something to be worked out between the railroad and the town(s) if this is indeed a new location for the switch and to hold trains. UPRR has had to agree with some small towns in Northern California to traffic changes after traffic patterns changed. Then again, the NIMBY's may be on one of their warped crusades - can't tell from here.

Curious to see how this evolves.

mc [banghead][banghead][banghead]

[Anonymous]

it is a crossover between 2 mainline tracks. it replaces one closer to Harpers Ferry (Possably the one on the bridge). CSX has heard the complaints and says something else must be causeing the structure problems, and to get used to the concrete ties because the whole line will be concrete ties within 10 years.

[jeaton]

I worked for a coal company with mines in southern Illinois, in an area where 6 to 9 foot seams about 500 feet deep were mined out underneath towns and rural buildings. With longwall mining, four to six foot surface subsidence would occure in a very short period after the coal was removed. Without intervention, the subsidence would trash most buildings. Before mining, the coal company would contract with surface property owners to cover damages, and then would mitigate damage by sort of propping up the buildings and replacing or repairing the foundations after the subsidence stopped.

When the coal company had acquired mineral rights many decades earlier, the surface property owners did not reserve any rights, and had no protection until laws were passed.

I'm not even close to being an structural engineer, but was wondering if there isn't a way to isolate the homes from the vibration causing the houses to shift off the foundations. If it was my home and it was really worth something, I'd fix it and then argue about who pays. Of course, it is more likely that the home owners will complain until the houses fall down and then will really get mad. Call the king of torts.

[Anonymous]

well, most of the houses are not only really old, but look like they are worth ony around $100,000 or less. think Beverly Hillbillys truck in front, & the house only looking a little better (Compared to the other houses in the area)

[dknelson]

A cee-ment pond out back and Ellie Mae tending her critters? Worth railfanning I'd say
Dave

[mudchicken]

DKN: Tell Mookie to be carefull around the chocolate cake if Ellie-Mae made it...

THG: RTD took that tact ("live with it")here and it did not work..At least so far...Local government tried to place noise & vibration regs which was promptly dismissed by the state ... so the posturing continues.

jeaton: Best move would be to keep the "kings of torts" unemployed. I would imagine the CSX claim agents are starting to go from nervous to just plain nuts. The claim agents can get the operating department to minimize dispatcher delay at the crossover and have them lay back if their is a more isolated place to do so within the block. The geotechnical stuff is an inexact science again - if CSX did not beef up the subgrade before changing the ties out (such as an asphalt underlayment), I would expect that the subgrade will fail somewhere.......It'l get fun watching them keep the concrete ties out of the mud and getting rid of the fouled ballast. As far as the vibration goes, each case is a different animal. When you start seeing them drill casing pipes into the ground for monitor wells with strain gages/ wheatstone bridges wired-in, figure the heat is on the geotechs to find a solution!

(We have the circus called Flour Mill Lofts here in Denver where a concrete flour mill was converted into condos in downtown Denver...again the "experts said there would not be a problem and the condo owners beg to differ....the owners complain about noise and vibration of mainline UPRR & BNSF trains going within 20 feet of the building...railroad has nowhere to move/ it's the only way south out of Denver and the owners won't admit that they were stupid enough to buy into a bad situation)

Keep us dialed in on what happens here, please.

mc

[TH&B]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dknelson



Having said that, cement ties are used a lot in Europe where the houses are often a lot older than 200 years old. I suspect the real problem is that we are moving to an era of 125 ton cars up from 100 ton.
David Nelson

[TH&B]

Well I screwed up the quote here........ but I was going to point out that wouldn't higher speed also have an effect like heavier cars? In Europe they are also increasing axle loads up to 25 metric tons and with many German cars having 5 or 6 axles we're talking up to 150 tonnes a car load of steel and unit trains. Like you said they have houses that are 100s of years old very close to the track. Thay use concrete ties.

[jeaton]

mudchicken.

I appreciate your input to this complex subject.

[jchnhtfd]

This kind of thing is a real pain for the geotechs and the engineers -- and a bonanza for the lawyers. Sorry to say, but it's usually easier to simply buy out the complainers and get on with it. The poor geotechs are left trying to prove a negative -- that the concrete ties (or whatever) isn't causing a problem -- in a legal framework where the benefit of the doubt always goes to the plaintiff -- and there will always be doubt. Even if someone had had the foresight to fully instrument the houses before the changeover, you'd still have an awful time proving that there wasn't some difference, and that that some difference was the whole cause of the problem. Whether it was or not.

Lawyer's field day -- and we wonder why they are so wealthy.