33,000 miles

[Stevo3751]

That was a time when railroads became less dependent on branch lines and other secondary lines in their territory. Of course, the shutdowns of the Rock Island and the Milwaukee Road triggered to the trim in mileage since their routes had almost no value. The Dakota, Minnesota and Eastern regional was created and Santa Fe tried to sell the Raton Pass line in the late '80's. Also Wisconsin Central was formed out of some of the Milwaukee's old tracks. 

[nanaimo73]

I'm just speculating that if ATSF had reached Memphis, KCS would not have put the Meridian Speedway together. Do you disagree?

Normally, I'm happy to disagree with just about anything , but I'm completely uninformed where it comes to KCS's historical family lineage, so I'll pass.

Generically, I'll say that the history books are FULL of failed small fry operators who tried to go toe to toe with a giant, only to have their head handed to them...so can't prohibit the possibility. never underestimate anyone, is my motto.

I am surprised, and disappointed, to see that. Mr Haverty at KCS has taken a number of gambles putting together a railroad that could compete with the big systems.

Why are you "disappointed"? Is it the gambles or the end result that has disappointed you?

I am surprised, and disappointed, at Convicted One saying he was completely uninformed when it comes to KCS's historical family lineage.

[andrewjonathon]

I am surprised, and disappointed, to see that. Mr Haverty at KCS has taken a number of gambles putting together a railroad that could compete with the big systems.

Why are you "disappointed"? Is it the gambles or the end result that has disappointed you?

[MP173]

Dale, regardless of whether it is vast knowledge or vast amount of time, I am always amazed at your ability to provide factual information.  Thanks for doing it.

 

ed

[nanaimo73]

Dale, with your vast knowledge I am slightly amazed you dont know exactly how many miles were abandoned vs spun off. 

Regarding the CFE/WLE, there may be contractual restrictions for such a merger.  Remember that CFE is leasing the line from CSX and rumor has it that CSX had restrictions on how many trains daily CFE could run into and out of Chicago.

Ed, I'm not sure I have a vast knowledge, more like a vast amount of time wasted looking up things. MC, LC or RWM probably have a better idea on that 33,000 miles than I do.

[Convicted One]

I am surprised, and disappointed, to see that. Mr Haverty at KCS has taken a number of gambles putting together a railroad that could compete with the big systems. I would have guessed it to be right up your alley.

Closer to home, how would you feel about the Wheeling and Lake Erie acquiring the Chicago, Ft. Wayne and Eastern, and reaching Chicago?

 

The things that Mr Haverty has been doing the past couple years, are indeed very interesting. The notion of opening up a major Pacific port in Mexico, with a direct route to the eastern  USA, appears ingenious....I'm watching as a spectator on that one, to see how it ultimately plays out. 

 

Perhaps one of my keenest interests in historical railroading has been with the failed Pittsburgh extension of the old Wabash, and the subsequent "alphabet route" that kinda sorta accomplished the same goal(s). So, a W&LE/CF&E merger would catch my curious attention for sure.  But if I recall correctly, the CF&E doesn't even reach Chicago anymore, does it?

[MP173]

Ah, one of my favorite subjects...lets take the United States Railway map, past and present and reshuffle.

No doubt, Dale, that Meridian Speedway would not have had the importance if the Rock line to Memphis would have been in place.  But, I think eventually the Meridian Speedway would have been upgraded.  It is a straight shot across from Dallas across to Meridian and then one could access Atlanta, Jacksonville, etc.  I could have seen both lines in operation.  The MS would not have gained as much importance as soon as it did, but eventually it would have been necessssary.  From what I have read, it seems as if John Reed of Santa Fe was very slow in pulling the trigger, actually he failed to pull any trigger.  One can see where the Rock Island line would have worked for BNSF and the MS for the UP.

Dale, with your vast knowledge I am slightly amazed you dont know exactly how many miles were abandoned vs spun off. 

Regarding the CFE/WLE, there may be contractual restrictions for such a merger.  Remember that CFE is leasing the line from CSX and rumor has it that CSX had restrictions on how many trains daily CFE could run into and out of Chicago.  Currently they are running every other day with the return trip the following day.  This is due to a lack of crews on the CFE, possibly due to reduced carloads.  Rumor had it 2 years ago that coal trains would run on the CFE, but nothing ever materialized.  The track is in decent shape, about 40mph, but they dont have many sidings. 

CFE/WLE are currently moving scrap between Chciago and PA, so there is some cooperation between the two.  I would think that CFE/WLE would draw some resistance from NS and CSX on the Chicago/Pittsburgh traffic.

 

ed

[nanaimo73]

I'm just speculating that if ATSF had reached Memphis, KCS would not have put the Meridian Speedway together. Do you disagree?

Normally, I'm happy to disagree with just about anything , but I'm completely uninformed where it comes to KCS's historical family lineage, so I'll pass.

Generically, I'll say that the history books are FULL of failed small fry operators who tried to go toe to toe with a giant, only to have their head handed to them...so can't prohibit the possibility. never underestimate anyone, is my motto.

I am surprised, and disappointed, to see that. Mr Haverty at KCS has taken a number of gambles putting together a railroad that could compete with the big systems. I would have guessed it to be right up your alley.

Closer to home, how would you feel about the Wheeling and Lake Erie acquiring the Chicago, Ft. Wayne and Eastern, and reaching Chicago?

[Convicted One]

I'm just speculating that if ATSF had reached Memphis, KCS would not have put the Meridian Speedway together. Do you disagree?

 

Normally, I'm happy to disagree with just about anything , but I'm completely uninformed where it comes to KCS's historical family lineage, so I'll pass.

 

Generically, I'll say that the history books are FULL of failed small fry operators who tried to go toe to toe with a giant, only to have their head handed to them...so can't prohibit the possibility. never underestimate anyone, is my motto.

[nanaimo73]

  I'm thinking that if the ATSF had grabbed that line, KCS would not have taken the MidSouth, and today the Meridian Speedway would not exist in one piece.

What's so bad about the Meridian Speedway? You make it sound undesireable.

If so, it was not my intention. I'm just speculating that if ATSF had reached Memphis, KCS would not have put the Meridian Speedway together. Do you disagree?

[Convicted One]

  I'm thinking that if the ATSF had grabbed that line, KCS would not have taken the MidSouth, and today the Meridian Speedway would not exist in one piece.

 

What's so bad about the Meridian Speedway? You make it sound undesireable.

[Convicted One]

     I'd be interested in seeing an article in Trains Magazine along the lines of "Where are they now?".  What would be interesting to me, would be a look at those lines that went to spin-offs that folded. What did they see in a line that the Class 1 overlooked, and I guess, the opposite.  What did the Class 1 see that the spin-off somehow overlooked?

 

I heartily agree Murph!!  A while back they ran an article about the class 3 Appalachian & Ohio and how they were making good of an old coal line that B&O had forsaken...and  I think that reading more of those kinds of stories would be interesting.

My personal suspicions include that the lines become viable after class 3 takeover primarily because of reduced labor costs due to collective bargaining agreements that are softer on the employer than those enjoyed by employees of class one lines.

I also suspect that the smaller lines get away with more deferred maintenance than the big boys dare try to get away with (remember the "unsafe railroad bridges" thread here a while back, where Kathi Kube mentioned the magazine was preparing a story along those lines? I wonder wha huppun to dat?)

[nanaimo73]

My candidate for the worst loss from the Rock Island break-up:  portions of the "Choctaw Route" betweem Tucumcari and Memphis.  I got the impression that if it had survived the company collapse as a through line, it would be very viable today.

I agree. I'm thinking that if the ATSF had grabbed that line, KCS would not have taken the MidSouth, and today the Meridian Speedway would not exist in one piece.

[garyla]

My candidate for the worst loss from the Rock Island break-up:  portions of the "Choctaw Route" betweem Tucumcari and Memphis.  I got the impression that if it had survived the company collapse as a through line, it would be very viable today.

[route_rock]

  AMEN to the spin offs!! I would like to see a where are they now article.See what happened to a lot of the old rails.

[Murphy Siding]

     I'd be interested in seeing an article in Trains Magazine along the lines of "Where are they now?".  What would be interesting to me, would be a look at those lines that went to spin-offs that folded. What did they see in a line that the Class 1 overlooked, and I guess, the opposite.  What did the Class 1 see that the spin-off somehow overlooked?

[nanaimo73]

6,000? I thought it was more?

I believe the railroad shut down owning 6,296 route miles, and also had 798 miles of trackage rights, resulting in a total mileage of 7,094. It also owned partial shares of some of the terminal railroads, like the Belt Railway of Chicago.

Perhaps we should thank William Johnson and Harry Bruce at ICG for starting the regional railroad movement. Without them, there would probably have been a few thousand more miles of track abandoned.

[route_rock]

  6,000? I thought it was more? Oh well you did hit the nail on the head.I would have to agree with your rough estimate of what is running as a shortline and what has been dumped en total.

  I know a lot of Rock Main is still running.Mostly as UP,Iowa Interstate,Kyle,Iowa Northern,Farmrail,and some other smaller lines.Milwaukee in my area is under the IC&E,I just wish the Pac extension was still alive and well.

  It seems now we are also going into expansion mode. New spurs to industrial parks and all.lets just hope we can keep the customers happy. Had a TM angry at us for bringing cars into the yard a day early. Says the customers dont like getting their cars on time or ahead of time.Please read my signature line to see my comments on this.

[nanaimo73]

Well, the Rock Island shut down in 1980, owning 6,296 route miles. Of that total, I believe 3,800 miles are still in operation, a further 1,104 miles of line operated since but were abandoned later. This leaves only 1,393 route miles which did not see further use.

I'll say 60% of the 33,000 miles went to regionals and shortlines, but perhaps a quarter of that has since been abandoned.

[Murphy Siding]

     In the article about the Wheeling & Lake Erie Railroad in the July Trains Magazine, it says that between 1980 and 1990, Class 1 railroads shed 33,000 miles of routes.  Any guesses a s to how much was abandonded, and how much was spun off to regionals and short lines?