when is a Dash9 not a Dash9??

[Anonymous]

Hello all

Can anybody tell me if the Dash 9-44CW's owned by CSX were originally Dash 8-44CW's. I know CSX ordered 53 Dash 8-44CW's (numbers 9000-99052 inclusive) in late 1993 to early 1994. I see these same units are now called Dash 9's with GSC/Adirondack trucks. Does any one the reason for this?

regards: Tom

[Anonymous]

could be. The ones you see may have had upgrades to dash 9s. if their the exact same units, they may have been overhauled instead of replaced. this is from th fingers of a railfan though, not an expert, so What do I know?

[Anonymous]

Hi

"Trainheartedguy" I just came across a thread on the net that said that CSX wanted them reclassed for some promotional reason.
Though they lack some of the standard dash 9 features GE has stated that they were in fact the first Dash 9's. Still look like Dash 8's to me!

cheers: Tom

[Anonymous]

that is still interesting. thanks for filling us (Me and anyone else reading & just not posting) in on what you found out

[Anonymous]

The engines leaved Erie as C44-8W. The only Dash 8´s with 4.400 hp.

As I know, only the CSX name this engines "Dash 9". So the CSX made and make this little confusion!

The main Dash 9 feature are the bolsterless trucks and the CSX don´t have them!

The only real Dash 9 feature is the 4.400 hp diesel

[M636C]

This point was raised earlier in another thread. I guess it depends on what you feel makes a unit a Dash 8 or a Dash 9. GE said they were Dash 8s, and I guess they should know. The transition from Dash 8 to Dash 9 ssems to have happened in stages. The number of steps at the frame ends changed from five to six. The UP 4150 HP Dash 8s had this. The radiators changed to provide split circuits for the engine cooling water and the air intercooler. This was probably necessary to get the 4380 HP, so the CSX units had this, as well as the six steps at the ends. Both the UP units and the CSX units had standard trucks with bolsters. The units that GE sold as Dash 9s also had bolterless trucks and had smaller air intakes. On the back cover of Greg McDonnell's field guide there is a photo of ATSF 824 (Dash 8) and ATSF 647 (Dash 9) side by side. It is easy to see on the silver body that the air intakes are smaller and further back on the Dash 9. The different trucks show up well, too.

So GE only called a loco a Dash 9 when it had the full package of changes. CSX may have felt that the greater power was more important, and wanted to separate these units from their other Dash 8 units of 4000HP.

But basically, Bigboy 4013 was right, GE called them Dash 8s.

Peter

[Anonymous]

First: Thankx to Peter: I´m Bigboy 4015 and not 4013 - I doesn´t saw this mistake in my signature.

Second:
Louis Marre wrote in the "classic" contemporary diesel spotters guide - 2nd edition the same as Peter and myself!
(I got this book yesterday for the second time because I want to have a new one in my collection - my first is in a not so good condition because it´s a real good guide) Found the book last week in a onlinebookshop in Texas.

Marre wrote that the CSX named the as Dash 8 delivered engines "DASH 9" at the cab! So the CSX made confusion.

[M636C]

Ulrich,

I'll avoid the numbers in future, to save me making mistakes. I looked the CSX units up in the Louis Marre guide as well, but I noticed the air intake difference in my own photos of ATSF trains in Blue Cut at the West end of Cajon Pass. I think Cajon Pass is a really good place, but what about Tehachapi? I try to visit both when in the USA. I'll have to look after my own Contemporary Spotters Guide, because Louis signed it for me!

The Pilbara Rail Dash9-44CWs are now built with two air intakes to cope with the high temperatures in Western Australia (although the first units had standard intakes).

Peter

[Anonymous]

Peter,

Tehachapi is great but Cajon - not so far away from Tehachapi is more impressive.
I like Cajon because of the heavy grades, 2.2 and 3.2%. The two mainlines BNSF and UP, very much traffic and when you see a freighttrain that starts in a siding at the UP line: This is terrific! That´s music to me!

Such a train is like an earthquake!!! Wow. I have one, start at Canyon-siding on a Trains (not shure) video.

By the way: I think we have both the same problem: California is far away - I need a minimum of 12 hours to fly to LA.

[broncoman]

Since we are on the subject of 9-44cws , does anyone now why some of the bolsterless trucks on the older 9-44s have a pronounced bump in them between the middle and end axle, and the later ones don't. Second question does anyone know why UP never ordered ac4400s with the radial truck?

Thanks in advance!

[Anonymous]

Hi Broncoman

the pronunced bump was changed when the design of the frames was modified in 1995 or 1996.
The bump has now another style with a hole in the middle.
In the main construction the truck´s are identical.

The three UP AC4400´s #6885-6887, delivered in November 1995, were originally equipped with GE’s design for self-steering radial trucks. UP 6886 was retrofitted with standard HiAd trucks in late 1997.

I think I read in an article that today both others are retrofitted too!

[M636C]

Broncoman,

I checked my own photographs, and it appears that the truck design changed somewhere in the middle of the ATSF Dash9-44CW order, between 647 and 674. The bulge is immediately underneath the outer rubber-metal sandwich body support. It may be there to provide clearance for some brake gear components, but I can't tell without seeing the drawings. The second design would be stronger, and easier to cast.

The GE steering truck in general has not been accepted as well as the EMD version, and there have been two versions, the later appearing only on the Australian AC6000s. The main user of the original design is CSX, although CP also have them. The steering trucks would be more useful on the older rights of way in the East where the curves would be expected to be sharper than on Western lines, at least today. It has been suggested that EMD's patents made it difficult for GE to design a truck without using the same design, and the GE design became more complex.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Hups, I must make a correction to myself.

The change in the trucksideframe-design was made earlyer, between January and April 1994 or so.

Look at page 67 in Greg McDonnell´s Field Guide: Both engines are CNW C44-9W the first, 8682, was delivered in April 1994, the second, 8658, in January 1994.
8658 with the old style
8682 with the new style.

The change must be made in 1994 because no AC4400 was delivered with the old style trucks.
Prototype #2000 was unique because of the use of MLW style Dofasco trucks!

Peter, M636, said the same with the two ATSF engines!

[M636C]

I think that the prototype No 2000 may have had MLW/Dofasco trucks because the Hi Ad design had not been completed at the time, and the MLW design was the nearest design available. The Hi-Ad was based on the secondary suspension of the MLW truck and the primary suspension was based on Krupp designs, used on some German built GE export units. Does anyone know No 2000's building date?

Peter

[Anonymous]

Hi Peter,

The GE #2000 was built in August 1993 - It´s older than the first Dash 9!

[M636C]

As well as the Canadian Dash 8s being built with MLW/Dofasco trucks, the Australian CM-30-8s (illustrated hauling "The Ghan" in the GE website) also have genuine Dofasco trucks imported from Canada. Two weeks ago I was able to compare the Australian MLW trucks under a rebuilt Alco with those on the CM30-8, and they were almost identical, although the locomotives were built twenty years apart. The former Alco now has a 7FDL-12 as well.

Peter

[Anonymous]

2004 will become a sad year for all Dash 9 and AC4400 fans!!!!!!!!!!

This year is definitive the last production year for this series (also for EMD´s SD70M and SD70MAC´s).

With the Tier II emissions regulations going into effect on January 1, 2005 both builders must bring this succesful series to an end!

What will bring 2005 ?

GE´s GEVO series will replace the Dash 9 and the AC4400 (the new DC series will become "Dash 10" - NOOOOOOOOOO THAT`S A JOKE!!!! but the DC prototype #2011 is ready at Erie).
The GE fans must say goodbye to the ex Cooper Bessemer FDL 16 Turbodiesel - after more than 40 years

And EMD will replace the SD70MAC with the SD70ACe - Is there also a SD70e?

And when I count the Dash 9´s and the AC4400´s together, because they are extreme similar - the AC4400 could be also named "Dash 9 AC". This series will be the most succesful locomotive series ever in the USA with near 5.000 locomotives.
With only ten years in production this series beat the SD40 / SD40-2!

I think so!

[M636C]

Ulrich,

The Cooper Bessemer engines were used in GE locomotives in Argentina in 1949, and in ten locomotives in 1951 for Queensland Railways. The Queensland locomotives were twelve cylinder model FVL-12 and developed only 1100 HP, compared to the Alco 244 which produced 1600 HP at the same time from twelve cylinders of the same size. But as far as I know, the Queensland locomotives were the first hood units using a V-type Cooper Bessemer engine for main line service in the world. The first one has been preserved and is still in working order. But I can say that the basic engine is the same as the FDL, and the engine has been in use for more than fifty years. It is possible that GE will continue to build FDL engines for export, as in the "Blue Tiger" units supplied to KTM Malaysia, where less than 4400 HP is required.

Peter