Creosote

[louisnash]

I don't know if this subject has been done before, but I am asking again anyway.

I thought that I had read somewhere that creosote is no longer used on railroad ties. Is this true? What do they use to treat them now. I don't even think that the newer power line poles are treated as well.

We were having a discussion at work today about it and I was certain they were treated another way, but with what/how?

Thanks
Brian (KY)

[mudchicken]

Creosote is still used as the main type of tie preservative. There are alternatives being actively investigated such as glass sillicate, but nothing has panned out yet. The Railway Tie Institute (RTI) and AAR are funding new investigations. Power poles are treated with borate solution (why deck timbers are green at the lumberyard). Borate however is more expensive and less effective because it still allows air voids to feed bugs and start the decay process, just it does it a bit slower. The idea is to fill the voids completely and eliminate air that aids the decomposition process.

[jchnhtfd]

Good news/bad news: as Mudchicken notes, creosote is still the main type of tie preservative -- for the very simple reason that it works, and the process used to treat the ties is well proven, and nothing else out there works anywhere near as well. The bad news is that the stuff contains a raft of compounds which EPA has deemed are hazardous, which is why RTI and AAR are looking for something else. I've yet to see a problem with a right of way becoming 'contaminated' from creosoted ties, but the older yards where they were treated usually wind up as hazardous waste sites, which is a fate worse than death. The newer treatment facilities don't, though -- no hazard there, so far as I know, other than the fear factor for the NIMBYs (yeah, that crowd again...)

[rrnut282]

Give a NIMBY in inch of information and they'll soon be your ruler!

I LOVE the smell of creosote in the morning.[:)]

[tree68]

It's funny in a way that the very thing that makes creosote valuable as a preservative of power poles and railroad ties also makes it hazardous to people. Whodathunk! We want something that will discourage all forms of life (bugs, fungi, etc) from thriving. If it's hazardous to them, it's probably hazardous to us.

As a result of the great Ice Storm of 1998, many poles in our area were replaced. Because of the magnitude of the event (well over 8000 poles had to be replaced), the utilities used about everything they could get their hands on. The local electric utility is now replacing some of those poles in a "pre-emptive" strike, as it turns out they were improperly treated and have started to rot from the inside out.

I have to imagine the same problem could be encountered in ties.

There's another recent thread which discussed types of ties, and their relative values. Concrete, steel, and wood were all discussed. A plastic tie made of recycle material was also mentioned. Of the three replacements for wood, I would have to guess that plastic might eventually be the material of choice. It can be engineered to have many of the same characteristics of wooden ties, thus would be able to replace wood one-for-one, while using steel or concrete means completely rebuilding the entire track structure.

Not a plug for plastic - just an observation. Time will tell as to whether it's a viable alternative, or if a suitable replacement for creosote can be found.

[mudchicken]

Most places, old ties are not classified as a hazardous material - but creosote in a can is. The over-reaction by local-yokel code enforcement people gets really bizzare sometimes when this fact comes into play.

[Anonymous]

I am allergic to creosote. I found this out one warm May Saturday in 1977. A buddy and me were in Hagerstown Maryland at the Western Maryland Yard standing next to a pile of fresh new creosoted crossties. We were watching the BL-2/slug drilling cars for about an hour or two. While driving home I noticed that the left side of my face felt sunburned. That is what I thought it was. A few months later I was working with some old utility poles and I developed the same rash on my hands. I went to the doctor the next day and he told me that I had that allergy. That has been a sure way to keep me off of RR property all these years.

Ash

[jchnhtfd]

I won't say that pure creosote (like in a can) is good stuff: it's not[xx(], and skin contact with the liquid form is discouraged (to put it mildly). This is also true of freshly creosoted wood done with some of the older processes, which can leave some liquid creosote on the surface, as Ash found out (sorry about that, old boy -- it's painful[:(]). It is NOT true of wood which has been properly creosoted, nor of wood which has weathered. As Mudchicken cheerfully notes, though, when the local yokel code boys get involved things can really get peculiar...[}:)]

did you know that some of the same compounds which are in creosote which make it hazardous are also in broccoli?[:D]

[Anonymous]

So much for me eating my veggies!!!!!!!!!!!! [swg]

[eolafan]

I remember as a young boy in Scout summer camp we had a retaining wall near our lake made from old railroad ties and some of us would sit on the wall in our shorts and some would get a really nasty rash on the backs of their legs from this stuff...very nasty!

[Mookie]

What veggie does creosote come from?

It's a joke, guys!

OK - where does it come from? What is in it and why does it smell so.....bad?

[mudchicken]

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, whatever became creosote was a veggie.....just not quite old enough to know what kind it was....[:-^]

[cherokee woman]

NOW I know why I can't stand to be in the house when Walt fixes his broccoli and brussels sprouts! And I also now know why the smell of them ALWAYS makes me SICK.

[Hugh Jampton]

Creosote is produced by distillation of coal tar, which in turn is a by-product from the high temperature treatment of coal. There are over 300 different compounds in creosote, many are known carcenogens. And it smells bad because of the nasty chemicals in it.

A couple of usefull web sites are:
http://www.nsc.org/library/chemical/Creosote.htm
http://www.eco-usa.net/toxics/creosote.shtml
http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/factsheets/chemicals/creosote_main.htm

[Mookie]

Hugh - thank you

Big Muddy Feathers- [dinner]

[Mookie]

Boy - reading about this stuff makes Mook's fur stand on end. It's bad news![alien]

[enr2099]

I know a RR that uses untreated ties. The Canadian Forest Products' Englewood Railway uses untreated yellow cedar ties, mainly because the location, on the northern part of Vancouver Island and due to the colder climate the untreated ties will last almost as long as the creosote treated ties used by the E&N Railway on the southern part of Vancouver Island.

[Anonymous]

I am here to tell you my allergy to creosote is my only allergy. But it is severe. I do not need to handle the stuff or get it on my clothes to get a rash, I just have to be standing next to a fresh pile and look out. On a hot very day when it is vaporizing and the fumes are very volital it is expecially bad. I am more concerned about inhalation than skin reaction fortunatly I've never had an inhalation overexposure. When CSX was replacing the timber trestle though our park in Harpers Ferry WV I was impressed with the workmanship of the construction of the cresoted bents and stringers but man I could not even imagine me doing that. (as much as I love trestle construction) I would have probably would have become a 6'3" rash. Like I said in my earlier post. Cresote has probably the number one thing that has kept me off railroad property especially bridges in almost 30 years of railfanning.

[jeaton]

ashbox-careful as you speak. Next thing is tie treatment compound designed to be alergic only to railfans and tresspassers. (Those are two separate groups of people).

[Anonymous]

Railroad should use treated ties

[Anonymous]

When CSX ripped out the RF&P's Potomac Yard I was suprised to see that quite a few unsalable ties were processed with a tubgrinder. They were shredded into a kind of course mulch, loaded into walking bottom trailers, and hauled off site to somewhere. I am told that the shredded ties were mixed with coal and burned in coal fired power plants as an alternative fuel. This is what I was told by another railfan. I don't know this for sure but is seems logical. My bet is that it was hauled to a industrial waste incenerator or landfill for that kind of stuff, What I do know is that the tub grinder was having a time with stray tie plates and spikes. But after a couple of weeks they had ground thousands of ties into thousands of cubic yards of cresote wood much. The pile did not stay long before it was all hauled away but it stunk the high heavens while it was there.

[Anonymous]

I believe that plastic ties will someday be R&D'd to achieve the strength of wood. Concrete ties last long but they have an almost 100% destruction rate in a derailment or dragging equipment situation. They are brittle and easily broken in these situations. As far as wood preservatives go CCA is on it's way out, ACQ is to caustic to fasteners so I guess we'll have good ol' king creosote for some time to come.

[Anonymous]

Well, for Cherokee Woman, I don't like Brussels sprouts, either. Broccoli, now, that's a different story - must be the creosote-loving gene in me. Tell Walt he's supposed to steam the broccoli, not boil it to death.[dinner]

I wonder if using shredded automobile/truck tires and bonding them into the shape of a tie would work. It might get rid of the landfill waste, and besides, the damned things never rot. I don't think a fire hazard would exist, since creosote would be more likely to burn than tires. I dunno - what's the ignition temperature of creosote vs. old tires?

[jeaton]

Joe-All I know is that if you have a big enough stack of tires catch fire, they will burn, and burn, and burn, and burn... But a good idea. I'd guess if you want to generate support for that (after you get the patent),get on forums for environmentalists and firemen.

Jay

[Anonymous]

During the Great Depression my father worked at the tie plant in Galesburg. He once told me that ill people use to go to the tie plant to breath the fumes to get cured.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pfrench68

During the Great Depression my father worked at the tie plant in Galesburg. He once told me that ill people use to go to the tie plant to breath the fumes to get cured.

From some of the cure-alls they had back when - it is no wonder most of them didn't live past 40's and 50's. Ack.....

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

QUOTE: Originally posted by pfrench68

During the Great Depression my father worked at the tie plant in Galesburg. He once told me that ill people use to go to the tie plant to breath the fumes to get cured.

From some of the cure-alls they had back when - it is no wonder most of them didn't live past 40's and 50's. Ack.....

Hey, you never know - the fumes might have actually helped something. Many "home remedies" have a basis in fact, even if modern scientific medicine doesn't see it that way. Then again, it may have been a case of hitting your thumb with a hammer so you don't notice the pain from the sunburn any more.....

And remember, strichnine can be an aphrodasiac in the appropriate dose..... I have no idea what the dose is, and don't intend to find out. One missed decimal point and, well, you get the idea.

Professional Driver, Closed Course. Don't Try This At Home!

[Mookie]

Got a splinter in my knee - about 8-10 years old. Grma told me a poultice of egg shells and Denver Mud would draw that splinter right out of my knee. Wore that sucker for several days before Mom pinned me down and took it out the old fashioned way - with a sterlized needle. Hurt like the dickens, which the egg shells didn't. But it started healing right away!

Glad Grma wasn't around when I fractured my leg around that time!

[Anonymous]

Anyone want some BROCOLLI?[:p]

[Anonymous]

PLEASE don't eat the railroad ties!