K. P. HarrierThe “HTUA” board reportedly stands for High Threat Urban Area. Sources advise certain “Key” trains are limited to 40 M.P.H. while passing the limits of such boards.
What an extremely dumb place for such a sign. If they wanted to be accurate and economical, the signs should be placed in Loma Linda, Devore, north San Fernando, Chatsworth and Mission Viejo. Stupidity and vandalism knows no economic or ethnic boundaries. Based on some well-holed rural traffic signs I've encountered, some other areas need a similar treatment.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
A quick search revealed what HTUA stands for.
A10
High Threat Urban Areas are specifically designated by the Federal Government in the Federal Regulations (FR Part 49, Section 1580). The following is the Los Angeles-Long Beach Area:
There is an additional HTUA around the Santa Ana/Anahiem area and San Diego. There are dozens of these around the country. The railroad doesn't have a choice on where a HTUA starts or stops. I do agree however that the Inland Empire deserves its own HTUA as it is dense as Orange County or some of the other HTUA in the US.
The list can be found here:
https://rsac.fra.dot.gov/document.php?type=meeting&date=20070222&name=HTUA.pdf
Norm
The Truth about Spadra, CA
On Wednesday, November 30, 2016, this November 25 taken Spadra area eastbound photo of the Diversion route was posted on Page 248 of this thread, the page before this one.
Forum contributor matthewsaggie saw and inquired about someone far away tiny and barely visible in the view, a person that K.P. had missed.
matthewsaggie IN you[r] second photo, from Temple Ave., is there some sort of crossing under the bridge? Optical illusion? I see someone crossing in the photo and it looks like a path to the left. (Quote edited)
IN you[r] second photo, from Temple Ave., is there some sort of crossing under the bridge? Optical illusion? I see someone crossing in the photo and it looks like a path to the left.
(Quote edited)
That reply post set some wheels in motion.
An investigation revealed that on the right side of that above photo, out of view on the far side of the freeway, is the Spadra Cemetery! Yes, a rather old cemetery from the 1700-1800’s. Cemetery access is ONLY by crossing the tracks, which explains why there is a narrow grade crossing there with crossing gates!
K.P. can remember riding the UP domed “Cities” trains through Spadra decades ago, and seeing a dirt road grade crossing with flasher devices somewhere in that vicinity. It was weird, but it was just dismissed as he could not do anything about it while on the train. It must have been that road to the cemetery!
That road, more like a walkway, is fenced, gated and locked, and is about a block long, with access only from Pomona Ave. north of the Diversion tracks The cemetery was there a long time before the railroad, so UP likely pays for maintenance of the grade crossing, and the flashers and gates that are present now.
A colleague investigated the matter, and uncovered this information now re-passed on to the forum: The cemetery is under the governance of the Historical Society of Pomona. Access to the site is via about a block long, narrow pathway with a wall on one side and the 57 Freeway embankment on the other. But that access walkway is normally gate-locked, thus it is not normally possible to visit the cemetery. It’s NOT like the gravesites have a bunch of living relatives eager to lay flowers at the grave markers. However, members of that historical society outfit get event news, and a few times a year tours of the cemetery are held. Thus, this forum contributor hopes to be a part of a future ‘cemetery tour,’ and at that time photos could be taken of that grade crossing and its crossing gates right by the 57 Freeway, and also the unlade Diversion “D” Track strip … According to my colleague, he was told by a Society volunteer via phone that possibly in February (2017) a cemetery tour might take place.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
This HUTA list is someone outdated. These three cities no longer have railroad service. Inglewood CA, Pasadena CA and Santa Monica CA. They do or will have light rail service but the FRA does not govern these systems. Yes Orange county CA has a HUTA area.
desertdog Back when the Capitol Limited still had a dome car, the conductor would close the dome as the train approached the north city limits of Washington, D.C. Apparently, residents near the tracks liked to drop rocks and chunks of concrete on trains passing beneath bridges. John Timm
Back when the Capitol Limited still had a dome car, the conductor would close the dome as the train approached the north city limits of Washington, D.C. Apparently, residents near the tracks liked to drop rocks and chunks of concrete on trains passing beneath bridges.
John Timm
On my first trip to D.C., I was stonewalled when I asked the reason. The second time around, I was given the rock throwing explanation. The overhead catenary excuse seems a little far fetched.
KP, not the ghost of Ned Harriman inspecting his property?
Some of the upper level tracks at Washington Union Station have or at least had wires that couldn't clear domes or Superliners. The current Capitol Limited uses the lower level platforms boarding since the upper tracks have high platforms - usable for the single level pre-Superliner Capitol Limited. At least one dome car made contact with the wires during a switching move - hence the rule.
rcdrye Some of the upper level tracks at Washington Union Station have or at least had wires that couldn't clear domes or Superliners. The current Capitol Limited uses the lower level platforms boarding since the upper tracks have high platforms - usable for the single level pre-Superliner Capitol Limited. At least one dome car made contact with the wires during a switching move - hence the rule.
Interesting. Thanks much.
When I left for Chicago, the train was on an upper level track, between Maryland trains on each side.
Johnny
In my experience (most recently in the Spring of this year), the Capitol Limited has always departed on the upper level of the station from Track 15, which has a low level platform. Also, some photos that I have show that Tracks 10 and 11 have high level platforms on their outer sides and share a low level in the middle. The tracks on the lower level of the station all have low level platforms and they lead to the 1st Street Tunnel. From what I've seen, unless there is an exceptional situation, they are used exclusively for southbound trains.
Regarding dome cars under wires in the Washington Terminal: in the mid 60s I rode the stub section of the Capitol Limited from Baltimore to DC. This consisted of the Cap's bagage car(s), coaches and a dome coach. They were joined to the dining cars and sleepers in DC. When we approached DC, I was told to vacate the dome on account of the overhead wires. In view of all the miles run safely by the Milwaukee Road's Super Domes under wires, I was a little skeptical about it being a safety issue. On the other hand, maybe there was more clearance on the Milwaukee's electrification than with the Pennsy's in Washington Terminal.
Pete
Can Off Topic Stuff be Made On-Topic?
East coast stuff, including the use of domes, has kind of gotten this thread slightly off topic, though that off topic material was most fascinating. But, while that off topic probably would return to Sunset Route things by itself, can east coast domes and catenary magically be made on-topic and very relevant to the Sunset Route itself? How about this …
President electric Trump has spoken of a massive infusion of money for transportation. Maybe out of the goodness of Trump’s heart a big amount of money could be given to the BNSF and UP so the Transcon and Sunset Route could be electrified. Presto and magic! Since the railroads painfully have reduced spending to pay for Positive Train Control (PTC), maybe the Trump administration would just GIVE the railroads, especially the western ones, a thank you gift of big money for erecting catenary, purchasing hundreds of electric locomotives, and quickly finishing the remaining Sunset Route two-tracking with wires overhead. Would the railroads jump at that?
Now, how’s that for attempting to steer this threat back to the two-tracking theme? Can you imagine UP’s business fleet of yellow dome cars under wires in Arizona?
Sorry, K.P. Since there has been a lack of railroad-funded 2-tracking that (I think) originally motivated your founding of this thread, I guess that we have been casting about for something to talk about and to keep this thread alive and on page 1. Yes, I know that there have been good posts about the trench extension and The Diversion, but the real "red meat" would be new activity east of Ontario or Colton. Anyway, that's my lame excuse.
Apparently U. P.'s new fiscal year begins on January 1. With that and the recent leveling off in traffic and even some small gains, maybe they will be motivated to re-start the 2-tracking. Perhaps in the next month or two, you could check out the North Ontario -Sierra section or even the area near Palm Springs, where you saw some tentative grading.
The biggest problem I see with electrification of long stretches of freight railroad main line, besides the high cost, is something no one is talking about. There is NOT an abdunance of surplus electric supply anywhere in the country. Besides constructing the necessary overhead wire and other trackside electrical infrastructure, investment in new power plants (always a problem with all the NIMBY's around) and more transmission lines (a bigger issue with NIMBY's, I hear power lines are ugly) would be necessary.
ccltrainsI notice in Dallas that UP has double tracked some of the downtown Kessler bypass but cannot find any info about its extent etc. does anyone have any info on UP's plans?
I've never heard of that before. Is that part of the old Texas & Pacific main?
I drove through San Gabriel last night, but it was dark and thus not much was seen.
MVS- The original T&P tracks were down Pacific Avenue in Dallas where the DART tracks are now. About 100 years ago Mr. Kessler designed a train reroute to get it out of down town. This included the current Union Station and a big U track taking trains south then north bypassing the business district and where the double tracking is to connect with the original T&P line. Have rode on it but before the current double tracking.
Still Trying …
K.P. is still trying to get to necessary replies, but things keep interfering, so bear with me.
Nevertheless, a few replies K.P. is impelled to make …
Pete-M3 (12-5):
The absence of Sunset Route two-tracking between Ontario and Fontana (CA) lingers on and I suspect it will remain such for a couple of more years. Also, the last time I was out by Mecca (near Indio, CA), that single-track portion with old signals lingered on too. But, the real meaty part is the single-track between Yuma and Estrella in Arizona, but the signals thereon mostly have newer, contemporary CP boxes from SP that seem to be compatible with color light signals, so that stretch could easily and quickly be converted from target signals to the color light type.
Don’t feel bad about a little off topic stuff, as some things are fascinating, as long as they don’t cry out that this thread needs to be renamed! (I’m laughing as I typed that …) You, Pete-M3, may be interested in the reply below to ccltrains, on another off topic matter, but one very, very related.
Hey, anything happening west of Houston, TX two-tracking wise on the eastern portion of the Sunset Route? What about the Brazos River sinking bridge?
ccltrains (12-5 to 12-6):
K.P. did not know about the Kessler Bypass in Dallas, TX. Is the left to bottom track in the link below that bypass?
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dallas,+TX/@32.7785752,-96.8107999,807m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x864c19f77b45974b:0xb9ec9ba4f647678f!8m2!3d32.7766642!4d-96.7969879
Your post inspired me to look at Dallas more closely. That Kessler Bypass is somewhat hard to follow, as its tracks and their ownership are not clearly identifiable on aerials.
Is the follow aerial of that two-tracking in eastern Dallas, the north-south track?
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dallas,+TX/@32.7662529,-96.7380799,202m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x864c19f77b45974b:0xb9ec9ba4f647678f!8m2!3d32.7766642!4d-96.7969879
The concept of a bypass in Dallas is understandable, but I don’t think whenever it was done the Texas & Pacific (MP) had much traffic on the line, so it probably didn’t matter to the railroad’s management. Today, under UP ownership, and a greatly increased traffic volume, I don’t think the Kessler Bypass would have come about, especially since it adds mileage to shipments. Possibly a straight through trench, but not a bypass reroute.
Interestingly, after SP and UP merged, the T&P train volumes swelled, so much so that where the T&P and SP split at Sierra Blanca, TX the track was realigned away from the SP to a straight track T&P alignment instead.
Above two views from June 2, 2013
In Dallas, apparently trains are backing up or there is congestion, because UP is two-tracking in that area, on a ‘feeder’ line to the El Paso-Los Angeles portion of the Sunset Route.
Do you know, ccltrains, if that Dallas area two-tracking is finished now, or still in progress?
Best,
K.P.
Thank you, CCL. I knew of the Texas & Pacific reroute, but I never knew the name behind the bypass. Thank you!
(Almost a decade ago, I rode the Rail Diesel Cars at Fair Park for the Cotton Bowl before it moved to Arlington; I believe I rode along the original T&P main.)
K.P., let me take a stab at your questions:
K. P. Harrierccltrains (12-5 to 12-6): K.P. did not know about the Kessler Bypass in Dallas, TX. Is the left to bottom track in the link below that bypass? https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dallas,+TX/@32.7785752,-96.8107999,807m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x864c19f77b45974b:0xb9ec9ba4f647678f!8m2!3d32.7766642!4d-96.7969879
Here is how I would describe it -- if you were walking from the west door of Union Station (which would be the back door, as opposed to the front/east entrance on Houston Street), you will cross over two light rail tracks first. You then pass by the one or two tracks dedicated for the TRE commuter rail.
The last, longest, and westernmost platform is along the mainline. I don't know the history of this mainline, but I can tell you that the Kessler Bypass runs along these tracks, southeast (/towards the bottom of the Google Maps link) from Union Station.
Moving a bit south-southeast, the tracks (which includes the Kessler Bypass) go under the convention center.
K. P. HarrierYour post inspired me to look at Dallas more closely. That Kessler Bypass is somewhat hard to follow, as its tracks and their ownership are not clearly identifiable on aerials. Is the follow aerial of that two-tracking in eastern Dallas, the north-south track? https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dallas,+TX/@32.7662529,-96.7380799,202m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x864c19f77b45974b:0xb9ec9ba4f647678f!8m2!3d32.7766642!4d-96.7969879
Yes, believe this would be two-tracking of the Kessler Bypass. Going northbound is actually going railroad eastbound, as a few miles north, you make the turn "right" and head east to Mineola and Longview. Kansas City Southern, I think, has trackage rights along the stretch from the aerial you posted here.
For MVS. The Kessler bypass was built about 100 years ago when the current Union Station was built in Dallas. Previously the T&P trains exited the bridge over the Trinity river and went east down Pacific Avenue (guess how it got its name). To get trains with their steam engine smoke out of downtown Dallas the bypass was built and the tracks on Pacific Avenue were removed. DART's current downtown alignment uses Pacific Avenue for their downtown route. What goes around comes around. Your ride on the RDC to Fair Park was a shuttle service from a remote parking lot to the fair grounds, a distance of about one mile. The old T&P tracks end around Fair Park. A railroad museum, Age of Steam, used to be in Fair Park and was served by the T&P stub. Dallas in their infinate lack of wisdom threw the museum out and it moved to Frisco, a few miles north of Dallas. Guess how Frisco got its name.
Age of Steam is far better off in Frisco. It's on a live rail connection and being no longer landlocked means that the collection can grow...
KP, if I had to make a "Trump gift to railroading" prediction, it would be the lifting of EPA restrictions on coal plants and perhaps some of that traffic returning to the rails. Electrification? No way.
KP- Tried to send this yesterday from my phone but was having some problems. Excuse me for duplication if you already got it.
KP- My observation of the double tracking is what I can see from the C F Hawn freeway US 175 overpass. The switch starting the double tracking is just south if this bridge as shown on the aerial. From a quick look from the freeway the track appears to be in place but I cannot determine if it is in service. The aerials only show the switch and the grading which extends to existing double tracking further east. I have not gotten off the freeway to see progress as this is not the best part of town. As to the tracks in town. DART and UP/BNSF share the same row from union station to past the Kay Bailey Hutchinson convention center. DART branches off to the north and the UP and BNSF continue south. You can see the curve back north where UP leaves the joint track. A short distance north of this curve is the switch mentioned above. Do not know why the UP did not continue the double tracking around the curve. Hope this is helpful. I should know more as I was on DART's board for 7 years but that was over 10 years ago and oldage is creeping in (CRS).Cheers, Dick Watkins
Perhaps if there is a tax credit of 50 cents on the dollar for Class 1 infrastructure investment similar to the short line tax credit, Sunset Route two-tracking will resume. We shall see.
The San Gabriel trench cam is back! It shows that the tall temporary fencing has been removed, and the 3:00pm image today shows a RH turnout staged under Ramona St. I speculate 'staged' as one logical place for this turnout to be cut in might be near Chapel Ave at the west end of the project; ballast hoppers and track laying machines have to enter somewhere. More wait and see ....
kgbw49 Perhaps if there is a tax credit of 50 cents on the dollar for Class 1 infrastructure investment similar to the short line tax credit, Sunset Route two-tracking will resume. We shall see.
A reduction in the corporate tax rate from 35% to 15% would go further to get companies like UP to increase their investment in infrastructure upgrades.
True, they would have more operating net income to invest because less of it would be going to paying taxes. Of course, it could also go to dividends or stock buybacks to increase share price.
But if they also had a tax credit for track capacity investment similar to the short line credit, it would further reduce their net cost of the investment, which in turn woud be a direct incentive to boost capacity for improved service.
It is probably a moot point, but with such a financial vehicle the odds of the remaining 183+/- miles of single track on the Sunset Route getting a second track sooner would increase.
CCL -- thank you for the background info! I've enjoyed learning about the rich RR history of the Metroplex.
K.P., Mike, etc. -- I had the opportunity to drive up San Gabriel Boulevard, Walnut Grove Avenue, and Del Mar Avenue this week, either hurrying to work or under cover of darkness. Progress is certainly being made.
mvs (12-10):
It seems it was in the present time (now) the San Gabriel Trench (San Gabriel, CA) was supposed to be sufficiently ready for track laying. If you are out that way let us know if you see any track being laid.
On June 12, 2008 BNSF laid about a mile of track in triple-tracking Cajon Pass, only an hour or two’s distance from the San Gabriel Trench.
So, I would imagine the San Gabriel Trench would have trains running in it soon. (Now, watch, trains will start running in it in July …)
For everybody’s Information
In the last few days K.P. has studied the matter and put together a posting about the somewhat strange new CP SP785 COLFRED and the western end of new two-tracking a year or so ago on the western slope of the Mohawk grade in Arizona. Watch for a posting tomorrow if not tonight ….
Mysterious CP SP785 COLFRED
Colfred, AZ
Part I (of I-III)
An Element that Tricks Observers
Colfred is about 50-55 railroad miles east of Yuma, AZ, and about a block or two north of the paralleling I-10 Freeway.
From the EAST, coming westward downgrade from the Mohawk area, the new two-tracks eventually arrive at CP SP785 COLFRED, a newer two-tracking CP where single-track presently begins westward. It just so happens that that CP includes the east switch of the Colfred siding.
The track arrangement that has been in effect for a year to a year and a half at the new CP SP785 COLFRED that replaced the old siding’s east CP:
.
------ / \Siding / \ Main 1------------- --------------------- / \ / \----------------------------------------Main Main 2
Early-on, May 31, 2015, a baffling element surfaced, with the east end of the SIDING having two exiting the siding signals, two west facing eastbound CP mast signals.
At the time, in the wonder of things, K.P. had forgotten to photograph both same-track signals in one view.
Continued in Part II
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