The city of Frisco, Texas has long used the Frisco logo on its water towers, fire trucks, road signs, bridge abutments, etc.
John Timm
There is a new guy that is claiming in a few collectors' sites that I frequent that he is the Owner and Chief Engineer of the "new" Rock Island Railroad.
Anybody hear anything about this enterprise ?
https://rockislandrail.com/
Falcon48 dldance the registered owner of any trademark can be found at uspto.gov. I had to look one up a couple of weeks ago for my work. If it has been canceled that site will generally say so. dd I know just enough about trademarks to be dangerous. But my understanding is that formal cancellation of trademark is not the only way the trademark can be "lost". It can also be "lost" through lack of use, among other things. Trademark / service mark legal protection exists to protect the provider of the goods or services marketed under the mark. Once the mark no longer identifies the provider (whether intentionally or not), the protection is lost. For example, one way "trademark" protection can be lost (even if the mark is registered) is if the mark over time becomes a generic name for a product rather than its maker. "Aspirin" is a good example. It used to be a trademark of Bayer (it still is in Canada), but the trademark was lost in the US when it became a generic name for the medicine itself. You'll often see companies try to avoid this be using phrases such as "Kleenix brand facial tissue" in their marketing rather than identifying the product simply as "Kleenix".
dldance the registered owner of any trademark can be found at uspto.gov. I had to look one up a couple of weeks ago for my work. If it has been canceled that site will generally say so. dd
the registered owner of any trademark can be found at uspto.gov. I had to look one up a couple of weeks ago for my work. If it has been canceled that site will generally say so.
dd
I know just enough about trademarks to be dangerous. But my understanding is that formal cancellation of trademark is not the only way the trademark can be "lost". It can also be "lost" through lack of use, among other things. Trademark / service mark legal protection exists to protect the provider of the goods or services marketed under the mark. Once the mark no longer identifies the provider (whether intentionally or not), the protection is lost. For example, one way "trademark" protection can be lost (even if the mark is registered) is if the mark over time becomes a generic name for a product rather than its maker. "Aspirin" is a good example. It used to be a trademark of Bayer (it still is in Canada), but the trademark was lost in the US when it became a generic name for the medicine itself. You'll often see companies try to avoid this be using phrases such as "Kleenix brand facial tissue" in their marketing rather than identifying the product simply as "Kleenix".
Aspirin in the US has a more complicated history. It never went through the genericization process. During WWI, Bayer and all its patents, trademarks, and other assets were seized by the US government. They were sold off piecemeal after the war, but the term "aspirin" was never re-trademarked as other US makers started making acetylsalicylic acid themselves. The Bayer name and logo weren't reacquired in the US until the mid-90s even. The aspirin name wasn't slowly degraded; it was straightup removed from the trademark list overnight.
I still hold that it is a representation of a buffalo hide. Many years ago, in a reprint of a 1922 RI history was a story of how the emblem came about. The story was that a hide had been tacked to a depot wall. Someone came along and wrote "The Great Rock Island Route" on the hide.
Jeff
Anonymous deepspire wrote: Now the Rock Island logo is officially in the public domain, so anyone can use it. (That F40PH is actually owned by the Iowa Northern.) That's even better! Another railroad operating former ROCK trackage that's recognizing the history of their line. This trend must continue. As far as the UP's heritage claims, then I'll expect to see Minneapolis & St. Louis, Ft. Dodge, Des Moines & Southern, Des Moines & Central Iowa, Chicago Great Western, Missouri Pacific and everybody else they've gobbled-up represented in heritage units in the coming years.
deepspire wrote: Now the Rock Island logo is officially in the public domain, so anyone can use it. (That F40PH is actually owned by the Iowa Northern.)
Now the Rock Island logo is officially in the public domain, so anyone can use it. (That F40PH is actually owned by the Iowa Northern.)
That's even better! Another railroad operating former ROCK trackage that's recognizing the history of their line. This trend must continue.
As far as the UP's heritage claims, then I'll expect to see Minneapolis & St. Louis, Ft. Dodge, Des Moines & Southern, Des Moines & Central Iowa, Chicago Great Western, Missouri Pacific and everybody else they've gobbled-up represented in heritage units in the coming years.
jeffhergert The Iowa Interstate now owns the rights to the Rock Island logo. The Iowa Northern received permssion to use the emblem. It's not a beaver pelt, it's a buffalo hide. There was a story awhile back where someone with a interest in the RI was visiting a cattle slaughter house. They had a hide tacked up on the wall. The person inquired if they were making a custom RI logo for someone. The personnel there had no idea what he was talking about, they had just tacked it up to display. Jeff
The Iowa Interstate now owns the rights to the Rock Island logo. The Iowa Northern received permssion to use the emblem.
It's not a beaver pelt, it's a buffalo hide. There was a story awhile back where someone with a interest in the RI was visiting a cattle slaughter house. They had a hide tacked up on the wall. The person inquired if they were making a custom RI logo for someone. The personnel there had no idea what he was talking about, they had just tacked it up to display.
Sorry Plowhandle, But your comment got me to thinking...Other railroads with logos that were tied to various other 'critters'...My personal favorite is the story of hw the SLSF RR got its logo, and how it [a "Coonskin"] identified the Frisco RR til its demise:
linked from: The Library @ https://thelibrary.org/lochist/frisco/history/1962history.cfm
PlowhandlePlease stop this silly attempt at legend-making by perpetuating nonsense like this.
Considering that the thread is some nine years old, I don't think anyone is currently working on perpetuating a myth.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Your post perpetuates the mistaken thought that the CRI&P's logo had anything to do with a pelt or a skin of an animal. You are confusing the Rock Island with the Frisco, whose 'coon skin' is well known.
The CRI&P's logo (from 1880) is a stylized shield - much like the contemporary shields of the Nickel Plate and Union Pacific.
Please stop this silly attempt at legend-making by perpetuating nonsense like this.
I'm very glad the C&NW never got the Milwaukee Road, because their plan was to abandon the Adams and Clyman subdivisions, and utilize the Milwaukee Road main line (double tracked) for C&NW traffic. Then, the line between Camp Douglas and Wyeville could have been placed back into service.
This means that Oxford would be nothing more than a trail...
Phil
This is a great question. The reason I say this is because I took the Milwaukee Road logo and changed the words with the name of the company I'm lease to. My truck is painted and lettered with the Milwaukee logo. I also used the running Hiawatha logo on the side of the sleeper. I looked it up on the gov website and it is not used or it is dead.
Too bad more railroads don't use the logos that make up thier railroad today. Glad to see the UP do this.
The Union Pacific or Canadian National can round up their former Rock Island Equipment Built between 1975-1980 and restore the original brilliance of the final Rock Island image!
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
The HO Scale Soo-Milwaukee Bay Window Caboose is sold by Walthers and can be found on the Walthers website at www.walthers.com . It is part of a Limited 2-Caboose Set.
The Milwaukee Road had a traffic sharing agreement with the GTW for the last few years of the former's existance. As such the GTW thought it should have first dibs on the Milwaukee when the sale sign came up. Problem was, the CNW, whom had been talking on and off with the Milwaukee for years about a merger or purchase, wanted in, as did the Soo (by way of parent CP whom wanted a better connection to Chicago). As I've read the CN wasn't as excited about aquiring the Milwaukee as it's component the GTW was and that was a large reason that they didn't get the line.
I've always wondered what was going on in the background between the two Canadian class 1s in regards to the Milwaukee. If anyone knows anything I'd love to hear it.
Cheers!
~METRO
METRO wrote:When the Soo first aquired the Milwaukee Road the original idea was to call the railroad the Soo-Milwuakee System. Some initial design work was done but I believe only one piece (a caboose) was painted in the joint scheme before it was decided that the Soo would just keep their colors. The Soo-Milwaukee paint retained neither of the parent railroads logos save a very highly modified Hockey Stick pinstriping. I wonder if this new corporate identity didn't happen as a result of the Soo not owning the name "Milwaukee" which was still owned by the parent of the Milwaukee Road. Would be interesting to hear the story behind that one.
Somewhere around here I have a magazine put out by the Soo at the time of the purchase. Everything was explained. There's a photo of that caboose. It was white with stripes. I wish I could find it. In the mean time, I found a model of the caboose on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/Soo-Line-/-Soo-Milw-System-Caboose-2-pack-Walthers_W0QQitemZ270211166767QQcmdZViewItem?IMSfp=TL0802120815a10468 I think the "Soo/Milwaukee System" was more of a marketing experiment than anything else, since the Soo never actually merged or bought the Milwaukee. They only aquired most of the Milwaukee's core railroad assets for $571 million. Basically, "Milwaukee II" was liquidated to one major buyer.
I remember Grand Trunk was the first contender, and they fought hard for the property. Even CNW got involved. When Soo won out (by a unanimous ICC ruling), many were upset. One of the first things Soo did in Milwaukee was was rip out the shops. I asked my uncle why, and he said, "Spite." The Soo later re-added some of the facilities they tore out.
I wonder what the system maps would have looked like today had the Grand Trunk won out. (Or had the Soo first aquired the Rock Island's old Spine Line for access to Kansas City. I know they fought hard for that first before losing to CNW.)
Further reading: http://altlaw.org/v1/cases/480846
http://www.projectposner.org/case/1985/756F2d508
http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/1986/sg860073.txt
jeffhergert wrote: The Iowa Interstate now owns the rights to the Rock Island logo. The Iowa Northern received permssion to use the emblem. It's not a beaver pelt, it's a buffalo hide. There was a story awhile back where someone with a interest in the RI was visiting a cattle slaughter house. They had a hide tacked up on the wall. The person inquired if they were making a custom RI logo for someone. The personnel there had no idea what he was talking about, they had just tacked it up to display.Jeff
Yes! That is right. Thank you. Now I remember the IAIS actually did aquire rights to the logo from Maytag, but they didn't aquire "The Rock," "Route Rock," or the "R."
(I've always heard it called "the beaver pelt.") http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22rock+island%22+%22beaver+pelt%22&btnG=Google+Search
wjstix wrote: Interesting that 20+ years later, the CP is still running a few engines in Milwaukee orange and black, with the quickie black painting-over of the Milwaukee name and herald fading away and revealing the lettering underneatch. Soo was quick to patch the MILW engines, but then took their time repainting them into full Soo colors apparently!!
Interesting that 20+ years later, the CP is still running a few engines in Milwaukee orange and black, with the quickie black painting-over of the Milwaukee name and herald fading away and revealing the lettering underneatch. Soo was quick to patch the MILW engines, but then took their time repainting them into full Soo colors apparently!!
It's great to see "The Milwaukee Road" again on locomotives. I suppose they don't have any urgency to paint over it now that "The Milwaukee Road" trademark is also in the public domain. I remember after the Rock Island shut down, I was sick of seeing the Milwaukee Road. It was everywhere, and I came to think of their orange locomotives as painfully boring. The Rock Island I remember seemed to have a dozen different color schemes on their locos by the 70's. Red, yellow, maroon, brown. All with a combination black/white/sometimes silver. Many different designs. Then the blue came along. You never knew what you would see next. And all the trains back then were still loaded with cars from every fallen flag since the 50's. Today I'm grateful for any piece of nostalgia.
WIAR wrote: That's even better! Another railroad operating former ROCK trackage that's recognizing the history of their line. This trend must continue.
Agreed. One of my favorites was the full Rocket dress: http://www.trainnet.org/Libraries/Lib003/F7A-RI.GIF It wouldn't surprise me if someday the IAIS painted a RI heritage unit, like the Iowa Northern did. I'd certainly be happy to see any Rock Island design rise again. http://www.trainnet.org/Libraries/Lib006/GP7CRIP.GIF
WIAR wrote: As far as the UP's heritage claims, then I'll expect to see Minneapolis & St. Louis, Ft. Dodge, Des Moines & Southern, Des Moines & Central Iowa, Chicago Great Western, Missouri Pacific and everybody else they've gobbled-up represented in heritage units in the coming years.
The heralds for all of those roads are already public domain except for the MP. UP was acting to protect trademarks it still owned, but would be in danger of losing (like the MP.) UP could certainly still paint heritage units for the other roads as well, however since it wouldn't benefit them to do so, unfortunately they probably will not. But what a family tree that would represent!
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train
deepspire wrote: I worked for the SOO shortly after their absorption of Milwaukee Road properties. I remember an almost obsessive desire for the SOO to immediately remove any evidence of "The Milwaukee Road." When I asked my uncle, who used to work in their corporate headquarters, he replied that SOO didn't aquire the "trademark." They didn't want to purchase anything they didn't have to.
I worked for the SOO shortly after their absorption of Milwaukee Road properties. I remember an almost obsessive desire for the SOO to immediately remove any evidence of "The Milwaukee Road." When I asked my uncle, who used to work in their corporate headquarters, he replied that SOO didn't aquire the "trademark." They didn't want to purchase anything they didn't have to.
On another point, when the SOO aquired the Milwaukee Road, they didn't aquire that logo. In fact, they didn't even aquire the entire Milwaukee. They only aquired what they wanted. For example, in Savanna, IL, the SOO only aquired three tracks out of that entire yard. Basically, the SOO skimmed off what they wanted and left the rest. Everything they didn't want was liquidated by the Chicago Milwaukee Corp.
Originally it was inherited by Maytag, who aquired the Chicago Pacific Corp.
I remember early-on the IAIS began using the beaver pelt portion for their own logo, but discontinued that for a spell I believe because of Maytag's claims. It's my understanding that after a period of years (20?) logos enter the public domain unless they are used by their owner. I think that's why UP painted their heritage units; to maintain a claim on their heritage logos. (A smart business move for future marketing.)
I'm sure someone else here knows more about corporate law than I do, but this is my understanding. I do wonder if IAIS was granted the rights to use the beaver pelt "shield" before it came into the public domain. I was happy to see it back on their locos. Either way, I think the shield itself is now owned by IAIS.
Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong on anything here.
The Iowa Interstate's F40PH locomotive (#678) wears the Rock Island's classic "Rocket" paint scheme, as well as the Rock Island's "beaver pelt" logo on the nose (complete with "Rock Island" inside the logo). It's used to haul the Hawkeye Express fan train for Univ. of Iowa football games.
First-off, I think it's great that IAIS continues to acknowledge the heritage of the railroad that built the lines they now operate. They have their own variation of the "beaver pelt" on some of their freight power and MOW equipment. I wish more lines would follow that example.
It begs the question - who now owns the rights to the Rock Island's logos?
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