Study Proposes High Speed Passenger Service In California

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Now back to California bashing......
So where exactly is all the money in CA going????

California which has high income, sales, property, until recently auto, and it seems just plain living taxes, high service fees, fees and fees and fees.........and taxes on the fees and a strong economy..unlike Maine can't get it's act together and is running 37 billion in the red or so, and doesn't have enough money to fight the wild fires but REFUSES the Navy's help to provide helicopter...because hovering over a fire and dropping water on it is a "specialized skill???" Let see, you're good enough to land on a hot LZ to drop troops....or land on a postage stamp that's bobbing up in down in high seas at night but sorry ...not good enough to drop a bucket o' water on the fires.....

....and they are expected to come up with a rational HSR plan?

Kallifoonia is a microcosm of our national system...In other words Special Interests rules. Nothing gets to where its needed because of all the interest groups hustling for their peice of pork. Personally I'd like to see the whole dam legislature removed and new officials voted in. Its the same problem with the rest of the country.

I blame the Golden Rule...who ever has the gold makes the rules, and rewrites the laws to make dam sure they keep the gold from everyone else. Our government is being crippled by greed and backdoor dealings. Decisions made on purely political ideology, not common sense, are going to destroy what we call "the American Way". And the people just sit back drooling watching "American Idol" or crying to high heaven in outrage over Janet Jackson showing some skin, Sheeesh , no wonder Europeans think we are completely crazy.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain

Vsmith,
Has anyone proposed the idea of a "speedboat" that could skim the ocean among the coastal cities? There's a group in Chicago that has floated the idea of offering a hovercraft service between Navy Pier in Chicago and Milwaukee's harbor on Lake Michigan.

Just a thought.

I saw a proposal for a ground effects air vehicle, it looked like an aircraft fuselage with large but clipped wings. The plane was to "fly" only about 50 feet over the surface at up to 300mph using the aerodynamic lift generated by the combined effects of the wing surface and the airflow under the vehicle. The purpose being that they could build a vehicle that could carry very heavy loas a plane couldnt lift and was much faster than a steamship. The Russian (bless there hearts, they'll try anything) actually built several prototypes, but found them not cost effectient, slower than a regular plane and burned alot more fuel. they were also prone to wave generated turbulance under the plane and to actual wave damage if the seas got too rough.

The Soviets were planning to use the ground effect vehicles as fast combat assault craft, simililar to the LCACs (hover craft) that the USN/USMC use, only with much greater range, payload and speed. They tested prototypes in the Black sea. But as i recall you are correct that they did not perform as well as hoped in rougher sea states.

Now back to California bashing......
So where exactly is all the money in CA going????

I've lived in TX and FL, were service fees, sales and property taxes are high, but no income tax and they seem to get by okay as far as state services.

I've lived in Commonwealth of VA where your money becomes common wealth. They have moderate to low sales tax, moderate income tax, low service fees (except auto tax, which I think they got rid of) and reasonable property taxes. Their roads, schools, services, facilities, FDs, PDs, all all excellent.

I've lived in Maine...Taxationland...sales tax moderate, property tax high, income tax high, they don't have a lot of folks living there, a bunch on welfare and half the population is actually from Mass and somehow avoid paying taxes to Maine. Their state services are fair to marginal. ....if it wasn't for volunteer FDs and snow the freakin state would burn down. They've driven out most of the business too. But they manage to get by. ...just barely.

California which has high income, sales, property, until recently auto, and it seems just plain living taxes, high service fees, fees and fees and fees.........and taxes on the fees and a strong economy..unlike Maine can't get it's act together and is running 37 billion in the red or so, and doesn't have enough money to fight the wild fires but REFUSES the Navy's help to provide helicopter...because hovering over a fire and dropping water on it is a "specialized skill???" Let see, you're good enough to land on a hot LZ to drop troops....or land on a postage stamp that's bobbing up in down in high seas at night but sorry ...not good enough to drop a bucket o' water on the fires.....

....and they are expected to come up with a rational HSR plan?

[vsmith]

Nothing that ever resembles "planning ahead" is ever done in this state. I think its against the State Constitution.

We build first, then we install the infrastucture and support systems by wedging it into the leftover space, and thats to a level thats already 10 years out of date. Is it any wonder we can get around at all in California.

Dharmon said it, I also said it in my earlier post, building infrastucture like new ROW for HSR or highway widening or even replacement structures like highway or train bridges had come to an almost complete halt prior to the budget fiasco. The costs and the legal BS and the NIMBY's who female dog and whine about how long it takes them to get to LAX but vote down any taxes for improvements have halted all progress out here.

Its getting absolutely ridiculous!!! I woulndt plan on seeing a shovel of dirt turned on this for at least 10-15 years. By which time it will be faster to take the overnight mule-train over the mountains than to try and drive...

[dmikee]

The only way high speed rail is going to happen is if it gains widespread public support and/or is connected to some other good outcome such as boosting employment, saving money on freeways, mitigating environmental concerns, etc. It will also need a huge input of federal and state grant money to get it constructed which in today's budget fighting seems unlikely.

While it's an obvious and badly needed solution, our society just no longer has any long-term vision about anything. Perhaps the Calif. housing crisis will ultimately make the difference by routing high speed rail to low cost areas for housing and connecting them with the coastal business and employment centers. Already the Altamont Pass trains are running profitably and at full capacity from Stocton to San Jose. But we can't even get BART connected around the bay!

Bummer...

[JoeUmp]

QUOTE: CA isn't the only place that could use high speed rail service. If CA wants federal $$$$ for its' rails, then the CA congress critters had better be ready and willing to vote some funds for the Midwest H.S.R.

Here Here. They've been talking about H.S.R. for a 200 - 300 mile radius around Chicago for years now, but no action has been taken yet. Too many feasibility and environmental impact studies and no firm plan.

Joe

[Anonymous]

Aren't we all a little late on this topic? California's proposed HSR line has been in the records for a while...I'm quite surprised nobody's mentioned the Authority getting it started. http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov is an incredibly informative site, and it tells all about what's happening and already happened...

As unreasonable as it sounds, and all the BS we're getting here...It IS on the ballot for the first time this November. The route's already planned for the most part and they're ready to go. Unfortunately the $9.95 billion may have trouble passing...although I'm a definitive "Yes"---more jobs for Civil Engineers [:D] and the HSR thing in the US has to get started somewhere.

Cheer up people
ha
Derek

[dharmon]

Well like I said before..Caltrans has done a good deal to get passenger rail going in CA between Metrolink, The Coaster and Amtrak California....but HSR is going to be a while in coming. The political fact is that CA, geography aside, is probably the most expensive state to construct in due to societal and enviromental barriers in the country...if not the world. Without using existing ROWs, which would require considerable modification to eliminate grade crossings, the real estate alone is going to drive the cost through the roof. And please don't take my comments wrong.....San Fran to SD is a perfect place to run a cooridor from a population density and a would be a real no kidding competitor to Southwest Airlines and an the interstates... but the amount of BS red tape and expense to do it make my head hurt.

[Anonymous]

Yes, HSR is expensive, but $33-$37 billion for 700 miles of double electrified track is not that expensive. This comes to $19 million per mile. Notice that double electrified track light rail in urban areas can run from $30 million per mile up to $140 million per mile, depending on terrain. Dallas' DART light rail is running around $30-$40 million per mile. Seattle's big dig of light rail, mostly tunnel, is running around $140 million per mile.

Florida expects its HSR between Tampa and Orlando, following interstate right of way, will costs around $14 million per mile, and Florida is using the Jet Train instead of electrifying its tracks, saving $3 million per mile. Therefore, California's cost per mile is only about $2 million more per mile, not bad considering there will be several miles of tunnels out of LA, and the Bay Area.....

The costs of $37 billion, the high end of the estimate, does not equal the amount of money California spends on highways each and every year..... HSR can be built just by placing a moratorium on highway spending for only one year, just one year!

However, California expects to build the HSR between San Jose and LA for around $10 billion, around 350 miles......

Its the other 350 miles that will costs twice as much....

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain

Vsmith,
Has anyone proposed the idea of a "speedboat" that could skim the ocean among the coastal cities? There's a group in Chicago that has floated the idea of offering a hovercraft service between Navy Pier in Chicago and Milwaukee's harbor on Lake Michigan.

Just a thought.

I saw a proposal for a ground effects air vehicle, it looked like an aircraft fuselage with large but clipped wings. The plane was to "fly" only about 50 feet over the surface at up to 300mph using the aerodynamic lift generated by the combined effects of the wing surface and the airflow under the vehicle. The purpose being that they could build a vehicle that could carry very heavy loas a plane couldnt lift and was much faster than a steamship. The Russian (bless there hearts, they'll try anything) actually built several prototypes, but found them not cost effectient, slower than a regular plane and burned alot more fuel. they were also prone to wave generated turbulance under the plane and to actual wave damage if the seas got too rough.

The Soviets were planning to use the ground effect vehicles as fast combat assault craft, simililar to the LCACs (hover craft) that the USN/USMC use, only with much greater range, payload and speed. They tested prototypes in the Black sea. But as i recall you are correct that they did not perform as well as hoped in rougher sea states.

Now back to California bashing......
So where exactly is all the money in CA going????

I've lived in TX and FL, were service fees, sales and property taxes are high, but no income tax and they seem to get by okay as far as state services.

I've lived in Commonwealth of VA where your money becomes common wealth. They have moderate to low sales tax, moderate income tax, low service fees (except auto tax, which I think they got rid of) and reasonable property taxes. Their roads, schools, services, facilities, FDs, PDs, all all excellent.

I've lived in Maine...Taxationland...sales tax moderate, property tax high, income tax high, they don't have a lot of folks living there, a bunch on welfare and half the population is actually from Mass and somehow avoid paying taxes to Maine. Their state services are fair to marginal. ....if it wasn't for volunteer FDs and snow the freakin state would burn down. They've driven out most of the business too. But they manage to get by. ...just barely.

California which has high income, sales, property, until recently auto, and it seems just plain living taxes, high service fees, fees and fees and fees.........and taxes on the fees and a strong economy..unlike Maine can't get it's act together and is running 37 billion in the red or so, and doesn't have enough money to fight the wild fires but REFUSES the Navy's help to provide helicopter...because hovering over a fire and dropping water on it is a "specialized skill???" Let see, you're good enough to land on a hot LZ to drop troops....or land on a postage stamp that's bobbing up in down in high seas at night but sorry ...not good enough to drop a bucket o' water on the fires.....

....and they are expected to come up with a rational HSR plan?

[rrnut282]

I haven't driven on I 5 in 20 years, but is it still possible to use the median as a r/w? Other than the grades and curvature problems it would solve the noise/property/NIMBY issues. I suppose the HSR could use an elevated r/w to help reduce grade problems as long as it could be quake proof($$$$). An active tilt system will lessen curvature speed restrictions.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain

Vsmith,
Has anyone proposed the idea of a "speedboat" that could skim the ocean among the coastal cities? There's a group in Chicago that has floated the idea of offering a hovercraft service between Navy Pier in Chicago and Milwaukee's harbor on Lake Michigan.

Just a thought.

I saw a proposal for a ground effects air vehicle, it looked like an aircraft fuselage with large but clipped wings. The plane was to "fly" only about 50 feet over the surface at up to 300mph using the aerodynamic lift generated by the combined effects of the wing surface and the airflow under the vehicle. The purpose being that they could build a vehicle that could carry very heavy loas a plane couldnt lift and was much faster than a steamship. The Russian (bless there hearts, they'll try anything) actually built several prototypes, but found them not cost effectient, slower than a regular plane and burned alot more fuel. they were also prone to wave generated turbulance under the plane and to actual wave damage if the seas got too rough.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

Now if they can come up with HSR/Autotrain so they can take their Humvees with them....

Just put flanged wheels onto the Humvie and everyone will think its diesel locomotive.

[tree68]

Now if they can come up with HSR/Autotrain so they can take their Humvees with them....

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD

High speed rail connecting the Los Angeles and the San Francisco areas poses several questions, one of which is what route would it take? The shortest route would be up and over the mountains that encircle the Los Angeles Basin along the I 5 corridor which follows the San Andreas Fault line. This route could require a long tunnel which could be very expensive since California is earthquake country. Add to that the line would have to be electrified. How is California going to pay for it given its shaky financial situation that caused a sitting governor to be recalled.

Sombody suggested routing the tracks along the Coast Line. This route is much longer, and because part of it runs along the Pacific Ocean it is vulnerable to storm damage.

While I think the ridership for a Los Angeles - San Francisco high speed rail link might be there, how do you provide credible projections of ridership? I am somewhat skeptical because a similar high speed rail project was proposed 20 years ago, but it was shot down for several reasons, one of which was its proponents could not provide credible ridership predictions.

The biggest difficulty with HSR in Kalifoonia as our new Governator calls it, outside of the politics and big money interests, is the TERRAIN. This is a huge obsticle. In La we are ringed by very large mountain ranges. (Mt Baldy +10,000ft) with only a handfull of ways out north and south. Cajon canyon, Solidad canyon, the south coastal plain, and the northern coastal plain. non of them are easy to insert a HSR system into. Where would the ROW's come from, everything is private property (often very $$ property ).

Going north south along the coast sound easy but now your trying to insert a fast, percieved noisy system into millions of NIMBY's backyards from San Diego to Santa Barbara. Then once you get north of Santa Barbara the coastal mountain ranges will prevent any HSR trains from maintainin the long straights or sweeping curves they need to maintain a high rate of speed. They will have to slow down or tunnel thru for many, many mile. Once they reach the Salinas valley It would be a fast run to SF or Sacramento.

Going out from LA north out of Solidad canyon the same issue of being slowed by the hills becomes an issue. Once out onto the Mojave you'll run into Tehachapi, need I say more, as in more tunnels.


Cajon canyon is too far east but would be an obsticle for any LA to Vegas route, and going south from LA down follwing the 15 freeway would also be tunnel-mania.

Can you say pork barrel feeding freenzy? i knew you could...[;)]

As it is given the economic toilet bowl our fearless political leaders on both sides of the aisle have left us in, I seriously doubt if we will see anything done to improve trasit in this State for another 10 years..[V]

Dont forget we also have to repair, or rebuild most of the freeway sysytem, our airports are overstressed because of all the dip*** NIMBYs who wanted more new houses and no new airports, and thanks to the Grit Eating Orangefaced Cheeseheaded Mutha****r's who are too F*****g cheap to pay the licensing fee's for thier $60,000 Humvie Pigmobiles, the cities are looking at up to 40% reductions in services. In otherwords, no cops, no firefighters, no pothole repairs, so services...[xx(]

Do yourself a favor ...DONT MOVE TO CALIFORNIA...at least not yet...its for your own good.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomfuchs

A report issued by the California High-Speed Rail Authority and the Federal Railway Administration says that a high speed rail line between Los Angeles and San Francisco would carry 68 million passengers by 2020 and cost $37 billion to build. That's a nice idea, but where will they find the money? A metro line to Washington Dulles Airport will cost $4 billion - only 10%. Could a list be developed of those projects with the highest ratio of benefit to cost?

http://www.metro-magazine.com/t_newspick.cfm?id=9057595

What this translats to is that there is $37bill they can steal and use to widen 1 or 2 freeway's.

[Modelcar]

....Any new project can be shot full of holes.....If it is a viable program worth looking into let it start through the process and see where it goes...Other Free World countries have done that and it's now reality for them. We're sure spending record amounts of money now for benifits mainly for folks other than us...How about thinking of this country and it's infrastructure once.

We made major infrastructure builds in this country back in the 30's....while we were in a depression...seems we might strive to shore up what is breaking down pretty fast now that our ecomomy is not receding but in expansion. [8D]

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomtrain

Why not ask the Hollywood celebrities? They've got all the answers and the money.

I don't know - they are pretty busy running for office or promoting their pick for office. Next they will want to move DC to Hollywood and Vine!

[RudyRockvilleMD]

High speed rail connecting the Los Angeles and the San Francisco areas poses several questions, one of which is what route would it take? The shortest route would be up and over the mountains that encircle the Los Angeles Basin along the I 5 corridor which follows the San Andreas Fault line. This route could require a long tunnel which could be very expensive since California is earthquake country. Add to that the line would have to be electrified. How is California going to pay for it given its shaky financial situation that caused a sitting governor to be recalled.

Sombody suggested routing the tracks along the Coast Line. This route is much longer, and because part of it runs along the Pacific Ocean it is vulnerable to storm damage.

While I think the ridership for a Los Angeles - San Francisco high speed rail link might be there, how do you provide credible projections of ridership? I am somewhat skeptical because a similar high speed rail project was proposed 20 years ago, but it was shot down for several reasons, one of which was its proponents could not provide credible ridership predictions.

[Anonymous]

Ok, lets see... I have read High speed rail service studies for the following....

NEC!!
New York to Albany???
Florida
Texas
Michigan to Chicago
La to Vegas

and now La to San Fran

The only one that will get built is in Iraq!

[mudchicken]

Reality check kiddies - it ain't gonna happen. Especially down there at Fullerton to "death-by-seawater" down to National City. Not in my lifetime.

DHarmon - Loved it when the Marines came out of the bushes at 2am in warpaint/blackfaced and heavilly armed at 2AM laying the steel down there at Fallbrook Jcn. in 88-90 when Santa Fe still owned it. Knew that turf well.

Quit wasting money on wonky studies that restate the obvious - Just build it!

Mookie: When you settle the locomotive issue, this will still be around. CalTrans will still have transportation folks (highway people) making uninformed judgements about what to do about railroads in the Great Granola Bowl to pacify all the fruits, nuts & flakes.

CG9602: Better hope that CA falls into the ocean and floats out to see in the next big quake. They think that the world ends east of the continental divide. DHarmon is one of the few that sees the bigger picture.(be nice to us Mookie!, we savvy Huskerland...)

mc

[Anonymous]

I would like to see a HIGH SPEED RAIL SERVICE between San Diego, Los Angeles and San Francisco via Santa Baraba. If they make improvement on the COAST LINE like add CTC, extended seveal Passing Sidings

[dharmon]

In all seriousness though, southern CA does have what appears to be pretty good ridership on the Coaster and Metrolink trains between LA and SD. The ROW appears to be in good shape. There are way too many grade crossings for true HSR, but the F59s get going at quite a clip once they get north of Oceanside and into the Camp Pendleton area. I know several folks that commute back and forth a couple of times a week to LA. If it were feasable for me to ride the train to base I would, but the air station is on The Peoples Democratic Republic of Coronado, providing a daily reminder to the rich island gentry of how us po fokes live.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

This forum doesn't have the GE vs EMD and Amtrak problems worked out yet - we don't have the time to take on any new projects. We will get back to you after our agenda is cleared!

PS - if it is carrying 68million passengers - where are they all going to live and work?

Stop the world I want to get off!

They apparently all live right here with me in my neighborhood and all commute with me to the base every morning. I'm keeping the books on tape industry alive and well aswell as the folks that make the plastic coffee cups with the no spill lids, cause I'd have to sue myself if spill it on me.

[CG9602]

CA isn't the only place that could use high speed rail service. If CA wants federal $$$$ for its' rails, then the CA congress critters had better be ready and willing to vote some funds for the Midwest H.S.R.

[Mookie]

This forum doesn't have the GE vs EMD and Amtrak problems worked out yet - we don't have the time to take on any new projects. We will get back to you after our agenda is cleared!

PS - if it is carrying 68million passengers - where are they all going to live and work?

Stop the world I want to get off!

[dharmon]

Around 2094 maybe.....after the 203 enviromental impact studies, lawsuits over the studies are resolved, lawsuits over making it available in the 29 most commonly used languages and accessable to folks lying on rolling hospital beds, the design is completley quiet and pollution free, and goes through no one backyard, three more governors are recalled, and when California balances its budget...who i am kidding, the Lions will win the super bowl and we'll have coast to coast HSR befor that happens....

[Anonymous]

A report issued by the California High-Speed Rail Authority and the Federal Railway Administration says that a high speed rail line between Los Angeles and San Francisco would carry 68 million passengers by 2020 and cost $37 billion to build. That's a nice idea, but where will they find the money? A metro line to Washington Dulles Airport will cost $4 billion - only 10%. Could a list be developed of those projects with the highest ratio of benefit to cost?

http://www.metro-magazine.com/t_newspick.cfm?id=9057595