Help - er

[Mookie]

Let's see if I can get this written so it is understandable!

Watching a loaded coal train - headed east - of course. One unit on headend.

Crawled out of the yard - never got above about 5 mph the whole time we watched it. Ok - no big deal. Helper on end. Heard helper notch up 2 times, still no increase in speed. What was the engineer doing with the helper? I watched it until it was out of sight about 2-3 blocks away and it never did increase it's speed (which was still slower than most trains going out of town).

That's all for now....

Mook

[tree68]

Can't help with Mookie's question, but do have one of my own on helpers - aside from performance of the train, how does the head end know the DPU's are working as advertised?

[Anonymous]

Mookie: Hard to say without knowing the grades, curve restrictions, switches, whatnot, that are present at this location. I assume what you are talking about is a DPU train, with the remote units controlled from the head end. In that case, he might have been bunching slack rather than risking a pull-in-two.

Larry: DPU locomotives all have the CRT screens and all the nice electronics, so the engineer can set up the screens to see exactly how the DPU units are performing. Usually he'll choose a display that will show him their tractive effort on a continuous basis. You can even look at each traction motor if you want, lube oil pressure, and even how well the air conditioner is working in that unit.

[Modelcar]

.....Do we know if DPU operations are used in the east....such as the long grade up from Altoona to Cresson...? Or perhaps manned helpers still do the job on trains requiring the shove up the "hill"....

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark W. Hemphill

Mookie: Hard to say without knowing the grades, curve restrictions, switches, whatnot, that are present at this location. I assume what you are talking about is a DPU train, with the remote units controlled from the head end. In that case, he might have been bunching slack rather than risking a pull-in-two.

Larry: DPU locomotives all have the CRT screens and all the nice electronics, so the engineer can set up the screens to see exactly how the DPU units are performing. Usually he'll choose a display that will show him their tractive effort on a continuous basis. You can even look at each traction motor if you want, lube oil pressure, and even how well the air conditioner is working in that unit.

Mark - just further clarification - would he be bunching the slack and then "holding" it with his helper?

Mookie

[cherokee woman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

Can't help with Mookie's question, but do have one of my own on helpers - aside from performance of the train, how does the head end know the DPU's are working as advertised?

[?][?]I'm showing my ignorance here, folks" What is DPU[?][%-)]

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cherokee woman

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

Can't help with Mookie's question, but do have one of my own on helpers - aside from performance of the train, how does the head end know the DPU's are working as advertised?

[?][?]I'm showing my ignorance here, folks" What is DPU[?][%-)]

I am so excited!!!! I can answer this one!!!!!!

DPU is Distributed Power Unit - we have a lot of coal trains thru here and they ....usually....have an engine on the front and one at the very end of the entire coal train. The front one controls the end one, which usually runs backward so the headlight can be the "marker" or take the place of the FRED. I know they run them in the middle sometimes, but have never seen that.

No doubt the guys will fill you in more....

Mook

[tree68]

QUOTE: ...Larry: DPU locomotives all have the CRT screens and all the nice electronics, so the engineer can set up the screens to see exactly how the DPU units are performing. Usually he'll choose a display that will show him their tractive effort on a continuous basis. You can even look at each traction motor if you want, lube oil pressure, and even how well the air conditioner is working in that unit.

Kinda figured as much, but hey, never hurts to ask...

"Wonder if the DS would let us take a siding and swap these units around. Looks like the one on the tail end has a better air conditioner."

[Anonymous]

Helpers -- a good topic, Mookie!

Regarding DPU/remote control helper ops in the east, to the best of my knowledge they are now rare to non-existent. I say "now" because the Southern Railway helped pioneer remote control helper operations in the 60s and 70s, and was very successful. Since their merge with N&W, Norfolk Southern has preferred manned helper operations. CSX and its predecessors have used manned helpers throughout.

In the past, the primary reason cited has been communication problems between the locomotives. In the densely forested, narrow valleys of the east, the remote helpers would sometimes loose contact with the headend. Needless to say, even rare, brief occurrences could cause big problems, really fast.

I'm not entirely sure why this situation remains. Maybe those communcation problems still exist, maybe tradition plays a role . . .

And by the way, if you're ever on the NS Pokey Division, they're called "pushers" (pronounced "pooshers").

Scott Lothes
Cleveland, Ohio

[cherokee woman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

QUOTE: Originally posted by cherokee woman

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

Can't help with Mookie's question, but do have one of my own on helpers - aside from performance of the train, how does the head end know the DPU's are working as advertised?

[?][?]I'm showing my ignorance here, folks" What is DPU[?][%-)]

I am so excited!!!! I can answer this one!!!!!!

DPU is Distributed Power Unit - we have a lot of coal trains thru here and they ....usually....have an engine on the front and one at the very end of the entire coal train. The front one controls the end one, which usually runs backward so the headlight can be the "marker" or take the place of the FRED. I know they run them in the middle sometimes, but have never seen that.

No doubt the guys will fill you in more....

Mook

[8D][:D]THANK YOU MOOKIE!!!!!!!!! Info very much appreciated[:D][^]

[CShaveRR]

Way to go, Li'l Sister!

I'm sorry I can't be of assistance on your original question, but--based on your past observations--my question to Mark would be, why would one train, and not all of them, behave this way?

[sigh] Guess I'm gonna have to come down there and see these things--and thingies!--for myself!

[Anonymous]

Hi Mook, you get an A for your correct answer. The UP runs a lot of DPU trains. I used to set-up 2 sets of 3 units each every night. [swg] When they would put the locos on the train, they would put 2 units on the point and one in the middle. [bow]

[edblysard]

Just a thought,
It was my understanding that the DPUs were "slaved" to the head end power, ie, what ever the headend locomotive control surfaces were set at, the DPUs followed suit?
If so, then wouldnt the hogger would have a to apply the independent brake on the lead to bunch it up...?
Have never been on a run with DPU, so ....
Wonder if the coal was wet, or had ice in/on it?
This would add a lot more weight to the train.
Mookie, you are just going to have to get a handheld radio, so you can listen to these guys.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[sooblue]

Hi Ed,
Almost got into your neck of the woods over Xmas. I couldn't convince my wife to let me drive into Texas. [:(] Some day![8)]

If I'm not mistaken Distributed power is Radio Controlled and can be controlled independent of the head end if the engineer so chooses.
I've always wondered what would stop some hacker from taking over an engine in Distributed power service. I know there must be some kind of safety but you know how hackers are. They'll get around anything if they want it badly enough.
Sooblue

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Just a thought,
It was my understanding that the DPUs were "slaved" to the head end power, ie, what ever the headend locomotive control surfaces were set at, the DPUs followed suit?
If so, then wouldnt the hogger would have a to apply the independent brake on the lead to bunch it up...?
Have never been on a run with DPU, so ....
Wonder if the coal was wet, or had ice in/on it?
This would add a lot more weight to the train.
Mookie, you are just going to have to get a handheld radio, so you can listen to these guys.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[kenneo]

Helper Operation --

First - The helper runs at full throtle until running that way will cause a derailment such as pushing cars out the high side of a curve. The helper engineer - or the engineer of a DPU lashup - atches his amp meter and can see at what point to reduce throttle.

The road engine controls the train speed and starting and stopping. So, Mook, as your coal train was getting going, the helper would increase throttle one notch at a time to the point where either wheel slip was starting or "push out' on a curve was possible.

At Eugene, when they had the helpers cut into the train in the yard, the road locomotive ran in a low run number and the helper was in run 7 or 8 while the rear end of the train was still in the departure track and not yet on the main. But if the helper was to be cut back later, the helper, being on the point, would be in a low run number and the road locomotive would be in run 8.

Second - MOST DPU setups can control the helper seperately from the road locomotive. The engineer can get a bit busy at times! The UP uses DPU between Hinkle and Nampa on all helper trains because there are three helper districts that can be eliminated. (If DPU is not used and the helper is manned, it still runs through instead of three different helper sets being used. So, you have two crews instead of one.)

But these districts have a lot of flat and downgrade in them and the helper is operated much differently from the typical up hill push on flat land and differently again when helping a descent. So, each DPU in a train must must be able to operate independently, not only of each other, but also of the road locomotive.

[Mookie]

Mookies printer running again!

[wabash1]

Ed

On the ns we ran true slaves up til 1999 here. the slaves did what ever the lead unit did. on dpu units they can be controlled seperately. past this point im at a loss as i have not got into dpu operations.

mookie not knowing what the conditions are ( track grade curves etc) there is really no reason leaving the yard why you would want the train bunched. i have a guess and i do this myself i will isolate the lead unit so i dont haft to hear it and let the rear ones do the work. but i doubt this was the case.

[dehusman]

They do use DPU in the east, because UP and BNSF coal trains operate to the east (at least as far as Atlanta) and the NS uses the UP/BNSF DPU power on run through trains.

The DP trains in the Blue mountains started with C40-8's and were configured 2x2x1. They allowed the UP to literally double the tonnage over the Blue Mountains and handle loaded soda ash and grain trains in one piece.

The trailing unit changing one or two notches would probably not make a noticeable change in the speed of a loaded coal train in any case. If it went to run 8 and you watched it for a couple miles, yes, but a notch or two over less than a train length probably not.

Dave H.

[edblysard]

Eric,
Running one set isnt all that easy, having to keep you mind on the rear one at the same time has gotta be a pain!

So, like Sooblue pointed out, whats to keep a dedicated hacker or radio control freak from hacking into the system?

Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

Ed

On the ns we ran true slaves up til 1999 here. the slaves did what ever the lead unit did. on dpu units they can be controlled seperately. past this point im at a loss as i have not got into dpu operations.

mookie not knowing what the conditions are ( track grade curves etc) there is really no reason leaving the yard why you would want the train bunched. i have a guess and i do this myself i will isolate the lead unit so i dont haft to hear it and let the rear ones do the work. but i doubt this was the case.

Wabash - having watched a good many of these - the usual thing is that the train pulls out at a slow speed (just not as slow as that one was going) - but slow and even and when the helper gets to just about where we sit - I hear it notch up one (not 2). We do have just a little elevation to get out of Lincoln ( we definitely sit in a bowl) and figured that was to help them get out of town. But this was so different - much slower and 2 notches on the helper - very plainly heard. Could the slowness been due to a MOW crew somewhere in the east part of town - but still doesn't explain the 2 notches with no increase in speed whatsoever. I was beginning to think Millie would have to help him get out of town as slow as he was going -

Mook

[DTomajko]

On the NS Pittsburgh Line,(ex PRR, PC, CR), manned helpers are still in daily use from Pittsburgh east to either Torrance,(the leveling of the grade at the Packsaddle Gap), or all the way to Gallitzin,(the summit).There is also a group of helpers assigned to Altoona to shove west over Horseshoe Curve. All are still pairs of SD40-2's or the Conrail SD40 rebuilds of 1996(?). When the Conemaugh Line from Pitt to Conpit Jct was closed in October for road tunnel installation, 1 or 2 pairs of C40-8 or -9's were also in service as helpers.Also, sometimes the helpers are kept on for the downhill trip to assist heavy trains with braking. I see this on eastbounds as well as westbounds. By the way, the PRR called locos added to the headend "helpers" and to the rear "pushers". I believe that NS still uses manned helpers due to the fact that the railroad west of Pitt and east of Altoona is relatively flat and is quite busy,(40-60 trains per day). DPU's put on and off at Pitt or Altoona would cause delays and probably isn't cost effective for 80 miles of railroad. Also, a lot of trains are intermodals or roadrailers that don't need helpers.Good luck and stay safe.

[Modelcar]

....Some years ago we were at the look out at Horseshoe Curve and I had my radio with me and listening to the chatter on it from the activity up and down around the Curve...and one of the Intermodal trains was working his way up around the curve and just as the engines were over the road tunnel at the curve I heard the engineer talking to a DP about how he wasn't sure he was going to make it without stalling out...He was barely moving but eventually he did make it up the hill without help. He did not have pushers and someone must have estimated tonnage and horsepower pretty close on that one.

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Eric,
Running one set isnt all that easy, having to keep you mind on the rear one at the same time has gotta be a pain!

So, like Sooblue pointed out, whats to keep a dedicated hacker or radio control freak from hacking into the system?

Stay Frosty,
Ed

Ed

What's to keep the hackers out? I don't know, but what I do know is that the FRA mandated total security prior to authorizing their use. UP doesn't seem to have communication problems with them.

I haven't checked out whether or not the UP instituted DPU service between Portland and Roseville, but they were supposed to have and they were purchasing the power to run the operation. These were to be on the fast trains - pigs and manifests, not drags. One of my kids lives in Canby, (I took my student telegrapher days there) and have yet to see any units cut back either east or west.

Like I said, the man (woman) can get a bit busy! The DPU's can be slaved to the points settings, but that can - and does - cause real control problems (which is why slaved only DPU's are not made anymore, that I know of). The good DPU driver has to be able picture in his mind what the train is doing around the DPed units - the same stuff he feels through his seat on the point.

No trouble staying Frosty here again. Temps are back into the 20's and teens. Car needs flanges. Again.

[PNWRMNM]

Eric

UP is running DPU between Eugene and Roseville. Have seen none Portland to Eugene.

Mac

[Hugh Jampton]

The issue of data security can be quite complicated, not only for DPUs, but also for Transmission Based Signalling (TBS) and Remote Control Locomotives (RCL) used in switching. Typically, the data stream has several different error checking portions to reduce the risk of intentional hacking and errors introduced due to poor radio reception. These include check sums, the use of parity bits, multiple frequencies and redundancy of information. To sucessfully hack into a DPU channel the hacker would have to know not only the proper frequencies in use, but also the correct data sequence and the method of ecoding both the check sum and the parity bit. It is generally felt that a hacker would have to be either exteremely lucky or have inside information.

[Mookie]

Kind of like firewalls in a puter system?

Mookie

(I like your signature!)

[tree68]

I'm sure there is some level of encryption going on in virtually all of the radio remote control devices. The hackers have some pretty sophisicated devices for finding out what they want. I'm not a hacker, but I'm pretty up on radio, and I'd bet I could discover the frequencies in a few hours of monitoring near a remote control site. Not to mention that many of those frequencies are readily available on the web. Need a way to tell there's a train coming? Program the FRED into your scanner!

On the data discovery side, how many know that some ill-mannered folks have been known to capture the codes for your car remote lock when you lock your car door at the mall parking lot? They just sit in the parking lot and monitor. Easy matter to set up a similar remote and unlock your car... That guy that sits at Starbucks all day, staring at his laptop computer? Picking up the keystrokes from all the other wireless LAN users, including things like credit card numbers.

None of the security is absolutely foolproof, but it goes a long way. In the end, it's just a matter of who is the most determined - the hacker or the potential hackee.

[UPTRAIN]

UP always has 2 locomotives on the front and 1 on rear though here.

[kenneo]

Mac

Last time I was in Eugene, only the 30 and part of the 40 yards were still there. Hump = flat land. Didn't look too closely for the roundhouse and engine servicing pad, but I didn't see them either. Nor did I try to get on the property.

So, where do they put the DPU's on, and where is the facilities they should be needing? A not very dependable source intimated (a sure clue that he didn't know!) that UP ran the crews through Albina-K Falls. My opinion is that they would have to run one train per day each way at full legal speed and meeting in the K-Falls yard to make that run without a patch. Oakridge would work - the BN detour jobs did that.

[PNWRMNM]

Eric,

UP shot themselves in the foot when they tore out more than half of the departure yard. They are always bound up.

They are still changing crews at Eugene. On a good day no one hogs between Portland and Eugene. Do not know about the mountain. At least it is not plagued with passenger trains.

Mac