Trains.com

Electric motors on diesels

1662 views
12 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Seattle
  • 36 posts
Posted by rrbrewer on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 1:24 AM
There is a very good presentation on how a diesel electric locomotive works [and why electric motors] at

http://travel.howstuffworks.com/diesel-locomotive.htm


rrbrewer
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 18, 2004 2:46 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark W. Hemphill

The answer to your question is well-described above, but perhaps I can add more detail. The key fact that makes a transmission essential is this: at zero rpm, the diesel (or gasoline) engine develops zero power. Moreover, a diesel (or gasoline) engine only produces anything close to its maximum power inside of a very narrow rpm range. For instance, with an EMD engine rated at 1500 hp at a maximum rpm of 800, you don't start getting anything close to 1500 hp until you get above 700 rpm.

Consider the simplest possible case of a diesel engine coupled directly to a wheel. You have to get the engine turning before you can move. The simplest way to do this is introduce a clutch: two friction plates a small distance apart rotating around the same axis, one attached to the engine, the other to the wheel (or output shaft). You rev up the engine independently, then move the two clutch plates toward each other until they contact. The clutch slips, temporarily converting some of the engine's rotational energy into heat, allowing the wheel to come up to the same speed as the engine without stalling the engine. Then the clutch locks up and you can vary speed by adding or subtracting fuel to the engine. But if you want to stop, you must disengage the clutch, unless you plan to stall the engine. If you slip the clutch too much, it overheats and burns up: you can't use the clutch for more than a few seconds at a time,

At a wheel speed of 10 mph, your direct-coupled engine is at idle. You want to run your engine at maximum rpm all the time to get maximum power and maximum efficiency for your fuel dollar. Since you can't continuously slip the clutch, you introduce a set of gears with varying ratios between the clutch and the wheel: high ratios (little gear on engine, big gear on wheel) for slow wheel speeds, low ratios (same size gear on engine and wheel) for high wheel speeds. In fact, in your typical car, "Drive" is a one-to-one ratio -- the engine crankshaft is turning at the same speed as the drive shaft coming out the back of the transmission. You use the clutch to change gear ratios.

(This is not the same as a gear reduction. Those are fixed, single-ratio gear trains between an engine and an output shaft, and recognize the fact that usually you want the engine or motor to turn a lot faster than whatever it's driving. For instance, all EMD and GE locomotives have a single-ratio gear train between each traction motor and the axle it drives, as do most ships between the turbine or diesel and the propeller shaft. For many years, the common ratio on EMD locomotives geared for a maximum speed of 70 mph was 62:15 -- a 62-tooth gear on the axle and a 15-tooth pinion gear on the end of the traction motor.)

The hydraulic transmission is a variation that uses an oil-driven torque convertor to do the same thing as the clutch: temporarily convert some or all of the rotational energy of the engine into heat until the input and output speeds match. The hydraulic transmission may include more than one gear ratio. The K-M diesel-hydraulic locomotives described above had only one gear ratio, so as they accelerated a train they converted a lot of diesel fuel into heat and wasted it. Hydraulic transmissions have become common in earthmoving machinery and medium-duty trucks (garbage, city bus) because they do lots of starts and stops, which burn up clutches quickly. But they're not popular in heavy-duty trucks (which don't do a lot of starts and stops) because they waste fuel.

The electical transmission is the common choice for big power applications. Unlike gear-based transmissions, which have a fixed number of ratios, this is a continuously variable transmission. Moreover, the electric motor develops maximum horsepower at zero speed. No clutch is needed: the electric motor can be directly coupled to the wheel. Now you can run the diesel engine at any speed you want totally independently of the wheel speed.

Why not use an electrical transmission in an auto? Because you don't need it, so long as fuel is cheap and your car is light weight. Electrical transmissions are very expensive, and other than in locomotives the only common transportation application is in large off-road mining trucks and some ocean vessels. LeTourneau also makes large front-end loaders and log-stackers that are diesel-electric. You also find applications that use a lot of electric motors, for example oil rigs, have gone all-electric, with a diesel engine driving a generator that powers everything.

In light railroad applications the hydraulic transmission is cost-effective. That's why it was used in RDCs and small switching locomotives, and has reappeared in the DMU that's now testing in the U.S. Big clutches are problematic to design and easily damaged unless you have a highly skilled operator. The only application of big clutches I know of are mine hoists, which are electrically driven.

I should add that a fourth variation has appeared in recent years: pure hydraulic. This consists of an engine driving a big oil pump, and oil motors driving rotational applications. This is the system used on excavators, which got that way because they already required the oil pump to drive their hydraulic actuating rams, sit in one place most of the time and when they move, don't move far. It also shows up on container/trailer loaders (as does diesel-electric).


AAAHHH!!! That's right!!! [:D][#ditto]
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 18, 2004 1:47 PM
I forgot about lawn tractors! I hate mowing lawns. That's probably why.

Caterpillar track loaders have a hydrostatic drive, too. But not their track dozers. I've read lengthy arguments as to which type of drive on a dozer is best. And you think EMD vs. GE gets heated ...
  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania
  • 13,456 posts
Posted by Modelcar on Sunday, January 18, 2004 7:58 AM
....As part of the conversation lets add...Hydrastatic transmissions such as used in Lawn tractors...Which I believe is similar as Mark's last illustration of pure hydraulic's. Infinite ratios and forward and backward operation are accomplished from the unit. No Mechanical clutch and no gear sets in the transmission. But the size of the engine in the lawn tractor and the locomotive are somewhat different.

Automatic Transmissions are making some headway in trucks now after years of a very slow start. Our projects were testing them over 45 years ago.

Diesel and the electric traction motor with the strong dynamic brake feature seems to be the best choice for the present.

Quentin

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 18, 2004 5:23 AM
The answer to your question is well-described above, but perhaps I can add more detail. The key fact that makes a transmission essential is this: at zero rpm, the diesel (or gasoline) engine develops zero power. Moreover, a diesel (or gasoline) engine only produces anything close to its maximum power inside of a very narrow rpm range. For instance, with an EMD engine rated at 1500 hp at a maximum rpm of 800, you don't start getting anything close to 1500 hp until you get above 700 rpm.

Consider the simplest possible case of a diesel engine coupled directly to a wheel. You have to get the engine turning before you can move. The simplest way to do this is introduce a clutch: two friction plates a small distance apart rotating around the same axis, one attached to the engine, the other to the wheel (or output shaft). You rev up the engine independently, then move the two clutch plates toward each other until they contact. The clutch slips, temporarily converting some of the engine's rotational energy into heat, allowing the wheel to come up to the same speed as the engine without stalling the engine. Then the clutch locks up and you can vary speed by adding or subtracting fuel to the engine. But if you want to stop, you must disengage the clutch, unless you plan to stall the engine. If you slip the clutch too much, it overheats and burns up: you can't use the clutch for more than a few seconds at a time,

At a wheel speed of 10 mph, your direct-coupled engine is at idle. You want to run your engine at maximum rpm all the time to get maximum power and maximum efficiency for your fuel dollar. Since you can't continuously slip the clutch, you introduce a set of gears with varying ratios between the clutch and the wheel: high ratios (little gear on engine, big gear on wheel) for slow wheel speeds, low ratios (same size gear on engine and wheel) for high wheel speeds. In fact, in your typical car, "Drive" is a one-to-one ratio -- the engine crankshaft is turning at the same speed as the drive shaft coming out the back of the transmission. You use the clutch to change gear ratios.

(This is not the same as a gear reduction. Those are fixed, single-ratio gear trains between an engine and an output shaft, and recognize the fact that usually you want the engine or motor to turn a lot faster than whatever it's driving. For instance, all EMD and GE locomotives have a single-ratio gear train between each traction motor and the axle it drives, as do most ships between the turbine or diesel and the propeller shaft. For many years, the common ratio on EMD locomotives geared for a maximum speed of 70 mph was 62:15 -- a 62-tooth gear on the axle and a 15-tooth pinion gear on the end of the traction motor.)

The hydraulic transmission is a variation that uses an oil-driven torque convertor to do the same thing as the clutch: temporarily convert some or all of the rotational energy of the engine into heat until the input and output speeds match. The hydraulic transmission may include more than one gear ratio. The K-M diesel-hydraulic locomotives described above had only one gear ratio, so as they accelerated a train they converted a lot of diesel fuel into heat and wasted it. Hydraulic transmissions have become common in earthmoving machinery and medium-duty trucks (garbage, city bus) because they do lots of starts and stops, which burn up clutches quickly. But they're not popular in heavy-duty trucks (which don't do a lot of starts and stops) because they waste fuel.

The electical transmission is the common choice for big power applications. Unlike gear-based transmissions, which have a fixed number of ratios, this is a continuously variable transmission. Moreover, the electric motor develops maximum horsepower at zero speed. No clutch is needed: the electric motor can be directly coupled to the wheel. Now you can run the diesel engine at any speed you want totally independently of the wheel speed.

Why not use an electrical transmission in an auto? Because you don't need it, so long as fuel is cheap and your car is light weight. Electrical transmissions are very expensive, and other than in locomotives the only common transportation application is in large off-road mining trucks and some ocean vessels. LeTourneau also makes large front-end loaders and log-stackers that are diesel-electric. You also find applications that use a lot of electric motors, for example oil rigs, have gone all-electric, with a diesel engine driving a generator that powers everything.

In light railroad applications the hydraulic transmission is cost-effective. That's why it was used in RDCs and small switching locomotives, and has reappeared in the DMU that's now testing in the U.S. Big clutches are problematic to design and easily damaged unless you have a highly skilled operator. The only application of big clutches I know of are mine hoists, which are electrically driven.

I should add that a fourth variation has appeared in recent years: pure hydraulic. This consists of an engine driving a big oil pump, and oil motors driving rotational applications. This is the system used on excavators, which got that way because they already required the oil pump to drive their hydraulic actuating rams, sit in one place most of the time and when they move, don't move far. It also shows up on container/trailer loaders (as does diesel-electric).
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: California - moved to North Carolina 2018
  • 4,422 posts
Posted by DSchmitt on Saturday, January 17, 2004 11:33 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by jchnhtfd

. The Krauss-Maffei diesels which ran years ago on the Southern Pacific and D&RGW were good, well-regarded units, too --


The D&RGW sold their units to the SP. The SP made two separate purchaces of Kraus-Maffei (which differed in appearance) and also tried diesel hydraulics made by ALCO. All the diesel hydraulics had a relitavely short operating life because the SP decided it was better just to have one system of power transmission to maintain.

In the US diesel-hydraulics are still used for some small switchers. Many small industrial switchers are diesel-hydraulics. There are also gas/diesel-mechanical industrial switchers.

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,021 posts
Posted by tree68 on Saturday, January 17, 2004 10:23 PM
The mention of a mechanical transmission makes me think of having a gearshift in the loco.... You'd have to double clutch... Some trucks have upwards of 18 forward gears, I think. How many would it take in a loco to get from 0 to 60 with a hundred car train. And what happens if you miss a downshift on a grade?

Random thoughts...

Way too random...[:-^]

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania
  • 13,456 posts
Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, January 17, 2004 10:15 PM
...And I will say in agreement the hydraulic retarder would have to really be man size to do the job as the dynamic's do...and as for the cooling of the oil...That would be a man size job too. Many years ago I was involved in testing such a retarder in the mountains in Pennsylvania on a semi truck test vehicle and we had a high capacity heat exchanger on it to do the cooling and it had it's work cut out for it. One thing about it we had the full benifit of the truck radiator on the down grade...Engine wasn't using much of it's capacity on the downgrade. The retarder was quiet effective too. But it sure did generate the heat...!

Quentin

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 17, 2004 6:32 PM
The transmission would be huge. The train would take forever to get up to max speed.
  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: US
  • 1,537 posts
Posted by jchnhtfd on Saturday, January 17, 2004 6:08 PM
There have been reasonably successful diesel/mechanical drive arrangements. Michael mentioned the DMU's in Britain, and there are a number of others in Europe. The Krauss-Maffei diesels which ran years ago on the Southern Pacific and D&RGW were good, well-regarded units, too -- and, of course, the famous (?) Budd RDC cars -- a number of which are still operating here and there -- had two diesels each driving one axle on each truck through a torque converter transmission (think: Hydramatic on steroids!). However, that being said, the diesel-electric arrangement offers some real advantages in terms of control and layout flexibility and power management, since the electrics handle all of the power transmission. Especially now, with the new emissions requirements, it is possible to run the prime mover in its most efficient power range, and handle all the speed variations with the electrics. Dynamic brakes are easier to manage with the electrics, too -- although hydraulic retarders are possible, if you can figure out a way to cool the transmission fluid (not so simple). Maintenance is an issue, too -- changing out a traction motor, while not exactly a do-it-yourself proposition, is a good deal easier than changing out a big automatic transmission, never mind Cardan (universal) joints and the like.

The biggest disadvantage is weight (generators or alternators are heavy muggers) -- but the weight is needed somewhere, anyway, for tractive effort, so why worry?

The modern hybrid cars (Toyota Prius, Honda Insight and Civic) use basically the same arrangement, in miniature -- an engine and generator and traction motors (although there the generator and traction motor are on the same shaft) and almost all really big earthmoving equipment is diesel electric (traction motors in the wheels or track drives).

I would note that many ships use or used diesel (or in some cases steam turbine or gas turbine) /electric drives, again for control flexibility and layout flexibility. Even -- or especially -- some very big ones, such as one class of US battleships and SS Normandie. Also many modern cruise liners.
Jamie
  • Member since
    February 2002
  • From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania
  • 13,456 posts
Posted by Modelcar on Saturday, January 17, 2004 3:20 PM
....I would imagine providing a mechanical clutch to connect the prime mover to the drive wheels would be a little touchy...and a maintenance issue. Of course then there would be the requirement of a transmission too....The alternator and traction motors take care of that requirement.

Quentin

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: Philadelphia
  • 440 posts
Posted by michaelstevens on Saturday, January 17, 2004 10:35 AM
I recommend that you read a book like "Modern Locomotives" by Hollingsworth and Cook, where you'll get the full skinny on how and why motive power technology progressed from steam to diesel power and from mechanical, thru hydraulic to electric traction.
There are still diesel/mechanical DMUs (Class 101s) operating in British passenger service. They've even got automatic gearboxes and all -- but they are rapidly being phased out and replaced by diesel/electric units.
Bottom line is that diesel/electric is presently the economical, most efficient choice wherever there are no O/H or 3rd Rail power supplies, for freight and passenger trains.
British Mike in Philly
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Electric motors on diesels
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 17, 2004 8:44 AM
Why do diesel locomotives utilize electric motors rather than running drive rods directly from the engine (like an automobile)?

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy