Going back to the original post - not all tank cars contain hazardous materials. The real old-time "Trains" readers might remember when they ran a page-3 photo of an N&W freight train being operated by management during the 1978 BRAC strike with a tank car directly behing the engine. This was part of a lead-off article about the strike and its long-term effects. A union offical sent in a scathing letter which led off the following month's "Railway Post Office" section, stating that FRA rules stating that hazmats can't be hauled directly behind the power. The next month's "RPO" led off with a letter from John Fishwick, the president of the N&W, which identified the train, the signal location, listed the unit numbers, date, time past the signal, and the tank car number... as well as the fact that the tanker was an empty that had last hauled a non-hazardous latex compound used to manufacture water-based house paints.
Hi guys,
sorry to keep you in suspense (long days at work). To answer your question about the loaded idler cars. The last transformer we just moved weighed 382,100 gross pounds. I apologize for the error, the loaded cars are not to weigh more than 263,000 pounds - still, ALOT of weight.
Gee, it's going to be really embarrassing going to the marital aid store to find a suitable, umm, object to model this load. ;-)
edblysard wrote:Idler cars in use.Because the turbines are longer than the flat cars, they use two flats per turbine, with a idler, or empty car in between.The reason is twofold...to keep the turbines from hitting each other, and because two of the turbines together weigh more then some of the bridges they will cross are rated for...the spacer or idler car distributes the weight over a larger area.
Idler cars in use.
Because the turbines are longer than the flat cars, they use two flats per turbine, with a idler, or empty car in between.
The reason is twofold...to keep the turbines from hitting each other, and because two of the turbines together weigh more then some of the bridges they will cross are rated for...the spacer or idler car distributes the weight over a larger area.
For operational purposes, having several light cars ahead of a heavy car can cause problems. I saw an extreme example in Austin TX where a string of empty hoppers was trailed by some loaded rock gons. When the engineer accelerated after crossing the Colorado River bridge, the light weight hoppers stringlined between the engine and the rock gons and derailed.
Originally the space shuttle booster train alternated shuttle cars (on 8 axle heavy flats) with old box cars. The box cars had been ballasted with concrete to better balance handling. The trains are now configured with a buffer/gauge check car following the engine, then 4 loads, then another buffer, followed by 4 more loads, with another buffer bringing up the rear.
By the way, although I have not yet seen the accident report, it now appears that the weight of the locomotives - not the weight of the shuttle booster loads - precipitated the Myrtlesville bridge collapse.
dd
It appears that there are two (at least) types of idler cars, and at least two names for idler/buffer cars? Type one, would be empty cars between the locomotive and somrthing potetially harmful, like hazmat,pipe, or rails. Type two, would be between extra heavy loads, to distribute weight on bridges.
How can super-heavy loads be run on lines not designed for them? An, in those case, why aren't the idle cars run as empties?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
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I'm new here to the forum, but I feel I must respond to this question. As I have read replies about idler cars, I must disagree with some of you. NOT all idler cars are empties. As a conductor on the WC (now the CN) I sometimes use idler cars to move heavy transformers. As our clearance papers state "This shipment must be seperated by any other heavy shipment or locomotive(s) by two loaded cars not weighing more than (usually 268,000 pounds) to help distribute weight across bridges. If no bridges are encountered enroute, idler cars are not required." Other idler cars we use on our system are flats (for extra long sheets of plate steel that hang over the ends of a flat, long telephone poles that hang out over a car, etc.) Usually an empty hopper or a high-side gondola is used for an idler on a welded rail train. Thanks - Bucky Katt
Interesting, but maybe a sign of the times -- no one has mentioned car ferries. Every dock had 2 or 3 or a half dozen ancient flat cars (or gons -- rarely box cars, probably for visibility) stuck on a siding. They were used to keep the loco off the apron when unloading and loading the cars.
I think it was the C&O in Port Huron that had special cars for this duty. Trucks, frame, handrails, and caboose type steps and platform on each end.
Timber Head Eastern Railroad "THE Railroad Through the Sierras"
To regress a few years, how about the following.
A really unusual group of idler cars was in mid 1950 by the DRW&W. They were hauling a lot of pipe and the pipes were longer the the gondola cars, approx 32 ft, that were on the line to haul the loads. So the necessary amount of idler cars were converted from old stock cars. The pipe lengths required an idler between each car loaded with pipe. So 10 loaded cars with pipe required a minimum of 11 idler cars.
The old stock cars were the 5500 series. The idler flat cars were called the 6700 series.
The pipe gondolas were convered from old high sided gons, that had the end boards removed.
This was on part of the old 3"-0" lines of the DRG&W.
The blue turbine shipment is really a double car shipment. Both heavy duty flatcars are carrying the load. The green supports are pivoting bolsters which are special shipping fixtures. They allow the load to pivot in relation to the railcar similar to the way the railcar's trucks pivot in respect to the railcar body. Pivoting bolsters are designed to secure the load and to distribute the weight of the lading on the railcar.
As previously reported idler cars have many applications. Loads which overhang the end or ends of a railcar will have an idler car or cars. There is no general prohibition against loading freight on an idler car provided there is sufficient clearance between the overhanging portion of the load and the additional lading. There are cars restricted to idler car use only and they may not be loaded.
The reason some idler cars appear old and decrepit is they are usually old and have the lowest care hire costs. They serve the purpose for which they are intended!
A few years ago a midwest shortline had some relatively new flatcars which became obsolete when shipper's required longer and greater capacity cars. They were cast steel cars which means they are almost indestuctible and really too good to scap. The shortline served shippers that had a need for idler cars. So they removed the decks, stenciled the cars for "Idler Service Only" and dedicated them to that use. They were really perfect for that purpose!
On occasion an enterprising shipper would ignore the stenciling and load one of these cars with steel plates. I became involved with an interesting situation involving one of these cars when the weigh-in-motion scale detected an overload. The shipper was chagrined when we requested them to make arrangements to transfer the load. In this situation the car could not partially loaded because it was restricted to idler service only.
For years after UP quit carrying livestock, they kept about a dozen old stock cars in Blackfoot ID to serve as buffer cars between lead shielded cars carrying nuclear components to INEL. The bridge across the Snake River could not handle two adjacent heavy cars so UP would cut in the stock cars as buffers to spread the load. Certainly made an interesting looking train - wish I had taken some pictures then.
Murphy Siding wrote: Old boxcars/hoppers/reefers never die-they just turn into idler cars.
and are condemned to a potentially cruel fate.
As several have mentioned,the idler car is to be used as a protective buffer at either end of potentially hazerdous loads.Its construction is of a skeleton type and cannot be used for purposes of carrying freight.For that reason,Idler Cars are taxed at a different rate than other cars. FMI, here is a quick patent review of the car...
Railway car
Document Type and Number:
United States Patent 4800819
Abstract:
A railway idler car used as a spacer car between loaded cars that carry very long objects, such as plates, girders, structural steel, pipe, poles and the like. The car is of a skeleton design and is incapable of carrying freight.
Does this answer the question?
Here is the description from the Railway Industrial Clearance Association (RICA)....
IDLER CAR: Generally a non-load carrying flat car or gondola car that is used in train consist for:
Providing space for load end overhang that extends beyond striker of load car.
Providing connection between two bolster cars carrying an extremely long load.
Providing separation between loaded cars or locomotive when a load is extremely heavy.
Providing additional braking capacity to supplement the braking capacity of a heavily loaded car.
mudchicken wrote:Take a good look at the next loaded rail train that goes by you. At either end of those rail trains you will find either a ratty old boxcar or a ratty old open top coal hopper.UP uses ballast cars w/ ballast.
Take a good look at the next loaded rail train that goes by you. At either end of those rail trains you will find either a ratty old boxcar or a ratty old open top coal hopper.
UP uses ballast cars w/ ballast.
Example from 2005, shot of the front end of a rail train going through Cedar Rapids:
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
23 17 46 11
edblysard wrote: The supports are solid...the two trucks on each end share, as Quinten pointed out, a common center frame.This frame pivots on a kingpin, dead center between the trucks, and each truck can pivot on the frame...these cars can take very tight curves.
The supports are solid...the two trucks on each end share, as Quinten pointed out, a common center frame.
This frame pivots on a kingpin, dead center between the trucks, and each truck can pivot on the frame...these cars can take very tight curves.
Buffer Car Example:
Should any of those 1440 ft strings get loose [ they are only bolted down on one car, the tie down car about a third of the way in from the end - so the rail does not bind], the rail will fly through the ends of the rail train, set off the shifted load strobe lights and crash into the buffer cars. Santa Fe used old reefer cars filled with sawdust. UP uses ballast cars w/ ballast.
The old Santa Fe Reefer cars had the scars to prove their worth.
Are the green supports also pivots and if so how do they work? Is a train like this limited to curves with certain arcs?
Chico
Ted M.
got trains?™
See my photos at: http://tedmarshall.rrpicturearchives.net/
Ed, gasoline is a flammable liquid. A combustible liquid is one with a flash point at or greater than 100 degrees Farhenheit. Gasoline's flash point will vary, but it is around -49 degrees Fahrenheit. The MRL's trains also carry diesel fuel, which most likely will be combustible.
http://www.ehs.neu.edu/laboratory_safety/general_information/flammable_combustible/
https://www.cbest.chevron.com/msdsServer/controller?module=com.chevron.lubes.msds.bus.BusMSDSDetail&msdsNumber=2655&docNumber=67727&docDataId=286469&docFormat=HTML&isLoginPage=true®ion=NA
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
edblysard wrote: See if this helps you out some...UP Form 8620, effective 0001 Sunday, June 18, 2006.Note that gasoline is a class 3, placard is the red one with the 3...diesel is the red and white placard, class 3, also in column A.The need for the one cover car in the story is simply for safety, a precaution in case of a derailment or collision.Note in the general instruction, page 39, section C for a definition of a buffer or "cover" car.
See if this helps you out some...
UP Form 8620, effective 0001 Sunday, June 18, 2006.
Note that gasoline is a class 3, placard is the red one with the 3...diesel is the red and white placard, class 3, also in column A.
The need for the one cover car in the story is simply for safety, a precaution in case of a derailment or collision.
Note in the general instruction, page 39, section C for a definition of a buffer or "cover" car.
I think gasoline us under flammable liquids. The placard on page 46 of the article shows a red diamond with a white box, and I think the number 3. That is clearly in column D of the purple area. A red diamond with a white box and the number 2 is in the same column. The white boxes are where identification numbers go.
If it was under column A loaded or empty, there are NO restrictions on placement. It could be next to the engine.
Loaded tank cars under column D in the purple area must not be next to any engine, working or not. It also can't be next to rail cars that have working internal combustion engines, Mechancial Reefers for example. It must not be nearer than the sixth car from the engines, working or not. However, if there aren't 5 cars in the train than are suitable to be used as buffer cars in the train, use the available ones to separate the engines, working or not, and the restricted car(s). At least one buffer car must used. (There are also other restrictions I didn't mention.) I think the main reason isn't for crew protection, but to keep these loads from possible ignition sources.
The Gas Local, and a lot of ethanol unit trains are made up with one buffer car. They get away with it because that's all that is available in the train's make up. No where does it say that if you leave the terminal you must pick up 4 more buffer cars enroute to get the normal requirement of 5. At least one is required and one is provided.
Jeff
This one?
And yes, the flat car is there for both reasons.
This one also has the idler cars to distribute the weight.
edblysard wrote: As a cover car...the FRA requires at least one non hazardous car between the locomotive and any hazardous loaded car...five non hazardous cars if available or depending on what the hazardous car contains.See UPs form 8620...placement in train chart."Cover" cars are referred to in form 8620 as buffer cars.MRL gets away with one because gasoline is a combustible, not a flammable liquid, and with combustibles all you need is one cover car.In fact, an empty combustible car is considered a cover car.Shiftable loads, like pipe or machinery also need cover cars...for pipe in gons, if it is loaded below the top of the car, no cover is needed, loaded above the top, it becomes a shiftable and needs cover.And, as the story pointed out, they often haul spot cars on the head end for the local to work, so they have cover there. Idler or spacer cars are used to distribute weight...but the terms...idler, spacer, buffer or cover cars are often interchangeable.The idea is to separate the locomotive and crew from the hazardous material by at least one car, in case of an accident.
As a cover car...the FRA requires at least one non hazardous car between the locomotive and any hazardous loaded car...five non hazardous cars if available or depending on what the hazardous car contains.
See UPs form 8620...placement in train chart.
"Cover" cars are referred to in form 8620 as buffer cars.
MRL gets away with one because gasoline is a combustible, not a flammable liquid, and with combustibles all you need is one cover car.
In fact, an empty combustible car is considered a cover car.
Shiftable loads, like pipe or machinery also need cover cars...for pipe in gons, if it is loaded below the top of the car, no cover is needed, loaded above the top, it becomes a shiftable and needs cover.
And, as the story pointed out, they often haul spot cars on the head end for the local to work, so they have cover there.
Idler or spacer cars are used to distribute weight...but the terms...idler, spacer, buffer or cover cars are often interchangeable.
The idea is to separate the locomotive and crew from the hazardous material by at least one car, in case of an accident.
Ed,
I think it was you who posted some pictures of Schnabel cars being loaded or leaving your area. If memory serves there were some idler cars between. Were these for protection or for weight issues. I thought there was another picture that had 3 or 4 idler cars between do to bridge loading issues.
....To try to answer Spokyone's question with "extra trucks in the center" how does it negotiate tight turns.
Believe each special flat car that has these special "double truck assemblies at each end of the car relies on a special frame connecting each set of trucks together and each truck fastened to that frame by a pivot pin. Then the top of said special frame is connected to the underbody of the flat car by another pivot pin. This arrangement allows each "truck" to follow the curve alignment.
Quentin
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