New employee training (the lack thereof)

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Hi,
My name is Morgan.
I think my daddy is in someplace called Kansas.
At least Lillybeth says he is.
She says anybody who clicks his bootheels together three times donst know a thing about common sense.
If you find my daddy, send him back to the swamp, please!
Morgan Leigh

Morgan, Lillybeth and Dona - your Daddy is safe in Kansas. He is just out of the clutches of the Mookie! AND - he will be watching for the 3985 to go thru there this week and will ride it back to Houston! So warm up that 8 day old coffee and empty the ashtray - Dad's comin' home.

Mookie

That's a relief. We flew all over the square flat states looking for him. No Ed....only a bunch of circles on the crops. Thought we found him once, but it was only some guy with a stick walking around and periodically laying it on the rails. We tried to pick him up but wouldn't go. He hadn't seen Ed...but we did find a little dog that answered to Toto waiting outside an establishment called "Wicked Wanda's".

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Hi,
My name is Morgan.
I think my daddy is in someplace called Kansas.
At least Lillybeth says he is.
She says anybody who clicks his bootheels together three times donst know a thing about common sense.
If you find my daddy, send him back to the swamp, please!
Morgan Leigh

Morgan, Lillybeth and Dona - your Daddy is safe in Kansas. He is just out of the clutches of the Mookie! AND - he will be watching for the 3985 to go thru there this week and will ride it back to Houston! So warm up that 8 day old coffee and empty the ashtray - Dad's comin' home.

Mookie

[Anonymous]

The GCOR does not prohibit the use of cell phones by engineers or conductors. This a rule that has been installed by some indavidual railroads. I work as an engineer on a small passenger railroad and cell phones come in handy when you have 600 passengers stopped at a red signal and can't tone up the dispatcher

[Anonymous]

When I did my Engineer training I had to attent LETS for over 6 weeks and then on to OJT for a minimum of 6 months prior to promotion (I and some others actually ended up with 9 months after a fataility involving a promoted engineer set back to Conductor without adequate OJT as a trainman). I am wondering if the Engineer in question here had 3 months after promotion or only a total of 3 months on the railroad?

LC

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

A couple of points to ponder: As a regular Metra rider (Southwest line), I have observed that the cell phones used by the crews are the type that also serve as walky-talkies, so they also fill the function of train radio.
Since the derailment occured on a Sunday, could the engineer in question have been near the bottom of the seniority roster or from the extra board? Unless an old head wants to bid in on a weekend run (not too likely), relative lack of experience will always be a problem on weekends.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

I was under the impression that all trains operating in passenger service and all freight operation on lines that operate where passenger service is run has to have the cab signaling system.

While cab signals exist on some Metra lines, they are not installed on the former Rock Island, nor is there freight service between LaSalle Street station and the area where the derailment occured.

A local newspaper thought they were scooping everyone when they did a big article on how cab signals "might" of prevented this wreck, but if the engineer had his head allegedly up his you-know-what, all the technology in the world coudn't save the train.

[wabash1]

Ed

not to disprove you but i have never seen a rule that says you cant have cell phones or even talk on a cell phone if you are a engineer or a trainman. the perpose of a cell phone is communications and thens gave out cell phones for the locals to use several years ago. I am not sure what the practice of metra is but in locomotive training you train for almost a year before you are let go to run by yourself. and most of the kids now adays think they are invinsable and can do no wrong. this will get them into trouble fast. as you see this guy out there 3 weeks didnt follow any rules didnt pay any attention and got himself in trouble. but i want to bring one more thing into the mix.

I was under the impression that all trains operating in passenger service and all freight operatioon on line that operate where passenger service is run has to have the cab signaling system . this shows what the last signal was and you haft to acknowladge this signal by pressing a button in the cab. ( ns engines have this ) if you do not reduce speed in conjuction with the signal the brakes will apply and stop you. . now if this signal system was in place why didnt the train stop? fault of the carrier.yes fault of the engineer yes. when you have hotdogs out there running trains things will go wrong. ( and i am not calling this man a hotdog , ) but look back at the 70s and early 80s in trucking when you had deregulation and anyone who could sit behind the wheel of a truck got a lic and drove at high speeds often killing inocent people in the process. seems to me its the same story on a new day. to bad the few good people haft to be jumbo into the same pot with the bad ones.

[edblysard]

Hi,
My name is Morgan.
I think my daddy is in someplace called Kansas.
At least Lillybeth says he is.
She says anybody who clicks his bootheels together three times donst know a thing about common sense.
If you find my daddy, send him back to the swamp, please!
Morgan Leigh

[mudchicken]

But Ed, those management greenhorns fresh out of school (and without ever getting their boots dirty) with their MBA, weren't there the day common sense was rationed out![(-D]

[edblysard]

Ready for the kicker?
The NTSB has requested Metra's phone records.

Because, guess who owns the cell phone!

Thats right, Metra issues cell phones to their engineers, in case of radio failure or extra heavy radio traffic.

Now, Metras rules states the phone can not be used for personal calls, only Metra business.

The GCOR prohibits cells phones completly.

Lets see, they issue the phone, which the engineer isnt supposed to have at all, according to the GCOR, but then expect the person they issued it to not use it, except to call the dispatcher.

Oh, and this guy was fairly new to the territory, something like 3 weeks service there.

Are we having fun yet?

Ed

[zardoz]

If it turns out to be true (that he was on a cell phone), then not only should the moron be fired, criminal charges should be filed against him. I have no patience for such stupidity!

[Anonymous]

I know third-hand knowledge is dangerous, and by the time I get it you could call it fourth or fifth-hand, but I thought I could give you some more details to consider.

First, I know a gentleman who was an engineer with Metra and is now in management. His number one complaint is that the commuter operation is not as much of a railroad as it is a political organization. All of the "railroaders" are leaving and are being replaced with career civil servants with no railroad experience. He is considering getting back in the cab.

Second, the rumor I have heard from multiple sources is that the engineer was talking on his cellphone while blowing through the signals that would have indicated the train was about to crossover to the other track. If that is true (and another rumor I have heard is the NTSB is investigating this), it confirms some of the points made in the starting post.

I invite anyone to confirm or deny any of the above. I have no official capacity. I am just passing along what I have heard.

[zardoz]

In various posts the subject of discussion had been the lack of OTJ training for new employees. Numerous posts have been written on the subject. Well, here is another one.

On page 32 of the "Stupid question" thread, the subject of markers for spotting passenger trians came up. A few mentioned that some 'commuter' lines use them at stations so the motorman knows where to stop. I wrote about the type of system we used on the CNW. Then techguy57 wrote saying that now Metra uses them on the (ex CNW) Northwest Line. Ed wrote about the difference in the type of training he received compared to what the new guys get. And numerous posts agreed on how short-sighted the railroads are by having this policy. And now we have some proof!

In the Jan.2 Trains Newswire, it was reported that Metra had demoted the engineer responsible for the crash of the Metra train last October.

I quote:
"Officials said their decision to demote and not suspend or fire the rookie engineer was based on his clean record in the three months he worked for Metra prior to the incident, and on their confidence that he would make a good assistant conductor."

THREE MONTHS EXPERIENCE!! And this person is alone in the cab of a passenger train !!

The result (again I quote):
"Just before the Rock Island derailment, which injured 45 passengers, the engineer missed two signals warning him to reduce speed before switching tracks, according to a preliminary investigation by the National Transportation Safety Board. The train was reported to be traveling at 67 mph through a 10-mph crossover near 47th Street on Chicago’s South Side. Tests of the signals and other equipment found no defects, NTSB officials said. The engineer has said he believed the track signals were set for him to continue at high speed on the same track. Two brand-new MotivePower MP36-PH-3S locomotives and several passenger cars were damaged."

Now I am not in any blaming the poor guy who caused this wreck. As any of us that have operated trains, and more specifically, myself, knows how confusing things can quickly get up in the cab, going 70mph through high-density populated areas. And in no way am I criticizing or picking on any new hires.

My point is to emphasize the STUPIDITY of railroad management in condoning this type of operation.

This time the railroad was "lucky". No one was killed. What about next time? How many hours of training could be provided for the cost of the lawsuits in the event of a multi-fatality crash, or the cost of a derailment, especially with haz-mat involved.

Sure, accidents happen, even with the most experience crewmen. However, I maintain the the chances of something catastrophic happening are far greater with poorly trained personnel.

Is that what the railroads are doing, playing a game of chance with the lives of its workers and those of the community?