Switch lock

[Anonymous]

While walking in a wooded area recently I came upon an old abandoned railroad spur. I discovered a flip-flop type derail with the lock still in place. I would like to have this lock for sentimental reasons, as I am a former employee of the railroad that owned this spur but I am a law abiding citizen and do not want to commit an act of thievery. If a line is abandoned, does the railroad still own the abandoned rails, ties, etc.? I'm not sure when the abandonment occured, but there are pine trees in excess of 30 ft. tall growing between the rotted cross ties. Would appreciate some advice.

[michaelstevens]

Boy that sure sounds abandoned !
However to be on the safe side, you might want to visit the local township office and take a look at the tax map (for the location).
That should tell you who presently owns the property and the materials thereon.

Happy Hunting !

[mudchicken]

(1) IF you're dumb enough to put your faith in a tax map/ assessor map to determine ownership then you can deal with the theft charges. Tax maps are not accurate, especially when dealing with railroads. Surveyors know that that at best, what you have is a rough approximation. There are county assessors in Missouri and Colorado, that I am aware of, that have injunctions on them after fraudulently selling railroad parcels at Sheriff's tax sales for supposed failure to pay taxes. (in both cases, a state auditor proved the counties wrong and the counties now know where some of their state distribution funds come from)....Rule of thumb, railroad maps and tax maps frequently disagree with each other and now with GIS, the problem has gotten markedly WORSE.

Courtesy of the 1903
Elkins Act, you usually find who owns, operates and maintains a track in a license agreement between a railroad and an industry. These documents rarely show up in a courthouse. These documents do NOT "run with the land" (transfer from owner to owner without signature and acceptance of the document)...If you can find an adjoinining owner to the railroad that will sign a release or bill of sale, go get the lock. Otherwise, LEAVE IT ALONE.

If the track is still connectected to another track that is still in service - LEAVE IT ALONE!
You are tampering with a safety device and subject to federal charges. (Anyone remember DM&E at Brookings, SD two years ago?, a conductor died....)

Mudchicken[banghead]

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The trackage may not be legally abandoned. Some lines are left in place for various reasons and have just been out of service for a long time.

If the line has been actually abandoned; the rails, ties and other appurtenances may still belong to the railroad or its estate if they haven't already been sold to a salvage firm such as Hyman Michaels.

[PNWRMNM]

Short answer is somebody other than you owns it.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

(1) IF you're dumb enough to put your faith in a tax map/ assessor map to determine ownership then you can deal with the theft charges. Tax maps are not accurate, especially when dealing with railroads. Surveyors know that that at best, what you have is a rough approximation. There are county assessors in Missouri and Colorado, that I am aware of, that have injunctions on them after fraudulently selling railroad parcels at Sheriff's tax sales for supposed failure to pay taxes. (in both cases, a state auditor proved the counties wrong and the counties now know where some of their state distribution funds come from)....Rule of thumb, railroad maps and tax maps frequently disagree with each other and now with GIS, the problem has gotten markedly WORSE.

Courtesy of the 1903
Elkins Act, you usually find who owns, operates and maintains a track in a license agreement between a railroad and an industry. These documents rarely show up in a courthouse. These documents do NOT "run with the land" (transfer from owner to owner without signature and acceptance of the document)...If you can find an adjoinining owner to the railroad that will sign a release or bill of sale, go get the lock. Otherwise, LEAVE IT ALONE.

If the track is still connectected to another track that is still in service - LEAVE IT ALONE!
You are tampering with a safety device and subject to federal charges. (Anyone remember DM&E at Brookings, SD two years ago?, a conductor died....)

Mudchicken[banghead]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by PNWRMNM

Short answer is somebody other than you owns it.

Good answer. This means you are subject to prosecution for theft or larceny if you take the lock depending upon the jurisdiction.

LC

[filmteknik]

Are the trees growing between the rails between the derail in question and the active line or the other way around?

[Anonymous]

I have revisited the area since my original post and here are the details. The derail is in a wooded area approx 150 ft. east of a highway that was resurfaced recently and no rails cross the highway. Following the spur all the way to its' origin there are a number of places where no rails exist, only rotted cross ties. Also, the switch at the point of origin has been removed.

[dehusman]

You can rationalize it all you want.

Unless you own the right of way or the land the right of way now sits on or get permission from those who do, taking the lock is theft.

Doesn't matter if its in downtown Manhattan or in the middle of Death Valley.

Chances are nobody except the 10000 people on this list (and you) will ever know you took it. Your chances of getting caught sound like they are about as close to nil as you can get. So it sounds like its down to just you and your conscience.

Dave H.

[kenneo]

Mac, MC and Dave are correct. Short answer addition to Macs is, search out who actually owns the rails and ties (not necessarily the same as who owns the ground), write to their legal representitive, get permission in writing and then you will be OK.

Keep in mind the following, also. Should the switch lock in question be railroad owned, it is a Federal Offense and the way "they" have been using the Patriot Act, look out! Also, whoever does own it will want legal fees and what they consider a fair market price for the lock. These may come locked in the same package or not, and perhaps legal fees won't be charged if all they do is sell it to you as scrap.

Please remember, it doesn't make one bit of difference if the railroad can even get to the location or not. SOMEBODY owns that lock, and right now, it is not you.

[Anonymous]

If I wanted to steal it, which I don't, I could simply take my switch key and unlock it. All you "ru***o judgement types" need to actually read every word of my original post

[edblysard]

Read your original post.
If the railroad had abandoned the line,
in the legal term, and released the ownership of the property, then the land, and everything on it most likley has become state property.

The carrier can abandond service on a rail line, but still retain ownership.
In that instance, the lock, ties and rail are still the property of the carrier.

Railroads abandon in place lots of spurs.

Check with the railroad, after all, you used to work there.

Their legal dept, or even the MOW or road foreman should be able to answer your question.

From your post, it would seem that if they tell you "no, it still belongs to us", then you question is answered, you have already stated you dont want to steal it, you wi***o acquire it legally.
If they tell you "we havent owned that for years and years", and you cant find a legal owner, then go get your lock.

My bet is the road foreman tells you go get it, but check anyway.

In the end, if you can not determin who, if anybody, owns the property and the lock, then it is up to you to decide.

If you want this for no other reason that personal satisfaction, as a artifact and reminder of your service, well...you decide.

But I would warn you that if, at any point after you acquire the lock, you sell it, say on E-Bay, or at auction, then be prepared to fade some heat, just like your switch key, it is illegal for any one other than a current railroad employee or their sub contractor to have one in their posession.

Best advice I can give you is,
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Thanks for reading my original post. My current employer and my past employer have trackage rights with one another which necessitates that I have a switch key for my past employer, as I am frequently on their rails.

[edblysard]

You know what, after re reading you first post, it occured to me you have enough experience to make the decision as to the chance of the railroad ever relaying the track through there, or making an attempt to salvage or re use the track, derail or lock..
If you come to the conclusion the answer is no, then go get your lock.
Every one on this forum could argue the legal ramifications to a finite point, but it boils down to a old switch lock lost out in the boonies, most likley forgotten, never to be re-used, that amounts to nothing, not even scrap.
Just ask them if they mind, I doubt they even know it exsist.
Stay frosty,
Ed

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by baberuth73

If I wanted to steal it, which I don't, I could simply take my switch key and unlock it. All you "ru***o judgement types" need to actually read every word of my original post

Babyruth73 --- Please go to the little icon at the bottom of this post that says e-mail and send me even a short or blank message. I will respond.

[8D]