Broken knuckle

[JSGreen]

The computors and yard masters dont build trains by tonnage they build them by blocks and that is not always the heaviest to the lightest.

Probably the single most significant point in the discussion...thanks for the reminder of the constraints of  real world railroading...

Also this is more train handling than anything else and what a simulator wont teach you is what a train feels like doing certain things  this is learned fromm the seat of your pants, run in of train run out of train  all feels differant  train sitting down on you, these terms may mean nothing to the average person but all engineers and most conductors know what i am saying. i can give you the basics but the rest is learned from the chair behind the throttle

Absolutley.  As I learned from flying lessons, its actually easier to land a real airplane, than one using the computer simulators...(unless it is a full motion sim, which is tough to put in the spare room...)

Also like flying,  I suspect lots of fine engineers can "do it" without being able to explain all of the subtle clues they receive from the train and terrain...

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this discussion! 

 

[wabash1]

its all in how the train is built. If the tonnage is evenly distributed  a good running  easy to handle train if all the tonnage is toward the head end, its easy to run but can be decieving if you have some heavy stuff on the rear. now if you have a heavy rear end this can play heck with you. if you dont pull them thru certain areas the slack will run in and if it runs out before you pull it out you will get a knuckle, if you pull to fast from a standing start it can snap a knuckle.  The computors and yard masters dont build trains by tonnage they build them by blocks and that is not always the heaviest to the lightest. I hope this answers your question

Also this is more train handling than anything else and what a simulator wont teach you is what a train feels like doing certain things  this is learned fromm the seat of your pants, run in of train run out of train  all feels differant  train sitting down on you, these terms may mean nothing to the average person but all engineers and most conductors know what i am saying. i can give you the basics but the rest is learned from the chair behind the throttle

[J. Edgar]

OK, how do you operateyour engine when pulling a long train over the crest of a hill? Going up would be slack-out, yes/?. Is there a time when some part of the train tops the hill it takes up the slac itself? Can you feel a bump in the cab when it doesthis?

Chico

think of your train as a slinky.....some of it is in compression some is tension..unless your ALL uphill or downhill..and if not careful you can realy feel the slack run in or out....kowing your territorty is the key.....knowing when to throttle off...set some air...throttle up.....or jump

[Steam Is King]

OK, how do you operateyour engine when pulling a long train over the crest of a hill? Going up would be slack-out, yes/?. Is there a time when some part of the train tops the hill it takes up the slac itself? Can you feel a bump in the cab when it doesthis?

Chico

[Namerifrats]

Having several loaded tank cars on the rear never helps either. When they get to sloshing around it can cause quite a bit of tugging on the knuckles. Having lots of cushion underframes together also can cause problems because it makes it a little hard for the engineer to feel his slack coming all the way out.

[WSOR 3801]

Many times in the yard a knuckle will just fall out.  Somebody up the line stolt the knuckle pin (makes an excellent beater).  When you pull the pin, the knuckle rolls right out.  Hopefully there is a pin nearby to get things put back together.

[CShaveRR]

it depends on train makeup. if it breaks in first 1/3 of train the break was caused by train build. if it happens in rear 1/3 of train it is engineer train handling. in the middle rarely happens and could be a mixture of both. knuckle breaks are more common in winter than summer because the metal wont handle the stress as well.

From following the many discussions on the forum, I think I have a pretty good appreciation for the issues and forces involved in train handling.   Or thought I did....

But how would building a train lead to a broken knuckle?  Do some cars have less strong knuckles?  

Train makeup can have quite a bit to do with it--if your loads are placed toward the rear and the empties between them and the locomotive, there will be problems.  The current rule on the UP is that the rear one-quarter of the train (measured in number of cars or platforms) may not contain more than a third of the total weight.

As for changing the knuckles, tools are very seldom necessary.  The cotter pin is, most likely, not there.  If you're lucky, the knuckle pin will be able to be dropped right back in or worked down manually--or maybe you'll need a hammer or something else to pound it in (radio handsets are frowned upon for this use).

We get a few broken knuckles in the yard.  Some folks suggest that this is due to humping impacts, but of course that's a fallacy.  They must be old breaks, and we're just finishing the job so they don't fail on the road.

[JSGreen]

it depends on train makeup. if it breaks in first 1/3 of train the break was caused by train build. if it happens in rear 1/3 of train it is engineer train handling. in the middle rarely happens and could be a mixture of both. knuckle breaks are more common in winter than summer because the metal wont handle the stress as well.

From following the many discussions on the forum, I think I have a pretty good appreciation for the issues and forces involved in train handling.   Or thought I did....

But how would building a train lead to a broken knuckle?  Do some cars have less strong knuckles?  

 

[wabash1]

No, I'm not talking about a handinjury.I see spare knuckles on some locomotives to repair broken couplers and assume tools are there, too.. Are there other spare parts on some or all rolling stock to fix broken couplers? How often does it happen and why? How long doers it take to fix one?

Chico 

The only way a knuckle will break is due to slack in train, When the train is being pulled you must take the slack out slow, if it runs in it has to go back out if you remain pulling on it slowly it will go out with out harm if done quick enough, if it comes in and starts running out the opposite direction, the conductor gets to walk. And no it dont happen at the rear of the train, it depends on train makeup. if it breaks in first 1/3 of train the break was caused by train build. if it happens in rear 1/3 of train it is engineer train handling. in the middle rarely happens and could be a mixture of both. knuckle breaks are more common in winter than summer because the metal wont handle the stress as well.

[Steam Is King]

I heard they only break at the tail end of the train, and only in the rain or when it's below zero.

Chico

[Namerifrats]

Knuckles are kept on the engines, tools (hammer, pipe wrench, extra O Rings, Chisel, extra Knuckle Pins, etc.) are kept in a tool locker inside the engine. Changing a knuckle only takes 2-3 minutes uder good conditions, but 3am, a rusted cotter pin and rusted inards can make it take a bit longer. Usually only need the hammer and chisel and a spare knuckle.

[Steam Is King]

No, I'm not talking about a handinjury.I see spare knuckles on some locomotives to repair broken couplers and assume tools are there, too.. Are there other spare parts on some or all rolling stock to fix broken couplers? How often does it happen and why? How long doers it take to fix one?

Chico