Union Pacific Is Powerless Against a Super Fearful Thing

[K. P. Harrier]

The forum to date has spoken words of practicality in the topic SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT BREAKUP UNION PACIFIC? Regardless, though, government tends to do the will of the people. If the average citizen could read WAVE AT TRAIN, GO TO JAIL that was popular at this forum a few months ago, they may come to have a very different view of Union Pacific, a shocking view that may even unsettle most railfans! I believe what is saving UP is the ignorance of the American people. But, even government officials run for cover when public awareness causes the feathers of the masses to become totally ruffled.

[ironhorseman]

WAVE AT TRAIN, GO TO JAIL is bogus.

1) I'll sue for false arrest
2) I'll sue for wrongful prosection
3) I'll sue the railroad for this policy

This is a bunch of gossip and rumors and it holds no weight. I don't think any railroad would want to risk such embarassment. I do know that some law enforcement agencies like to embarass themselves. In Virgina the pull their guns on school children in a failed "drug raid" at a high school, in Ohio they beat a man to death, and the DA in LA is acting totally unprofessional in his prosecution of Micheal Jackson. Even if Jackson is guilty of some crime the DA should be fired for his approach to the whole fiasco. With that said I would expect the police to not hesitate to arrest someone for waving at train. I don't know that the railroad, however, would actually prosecute, but I'd make them sorriest suckers to walk the face of the face.

The government shouldn't break up the UP. That don't make no sence at all.

[CShaveRR]

UP will not jail a person for waving at or photographing a train. For trespassing, perhaps...but whose fault would that be?

Mr. Harrier...have you met a guy nicknamed "Missouri?"

[dharmon]

and you guys think I was hitting the pain pills a little hard.......

By the way....Ed if you're reading this...can you FEDEX me a whataburger (double) w/cheese and jalapenos so I can go hide in my happy place until its over ......

[K. P. Harrier]

Whoops! NOT the ignorance of Americans, but UNAWARENESS would have been a better word choice. I apologize.

As far as facts, I personally was told to move on by Union Pacific special agents, and explicitly hold the railroad property began at the pavement edge. I believe the masses believe as I do, that one should be able to safely park out of traffic on the shoulder paid for by the taxpayers. If the railroad put signs up declaring their property line and what would happen to the people that safely parked out of traffic, the public outcry would be so great and hostile that the railroad would immediately change its tune, or suffer the consequences if it did not. The railroad playing a bully game simply does not reflect well on the American flag adorning UP locomotives. And what property own should risk his property or house to play the game? Saying one will sue has greater implications than one first thinks. I believe the force of a mob changes even the wickedest of villains! Going it alone is not wise.

[edblysard]

Hi Dan,
Aimee says she will happy to bring you a Whataburger,
(she is looking for a good excuse to do a road trip),
do you want extra grease and a side of onion rings?
Ed

[jchnhtfd]

K. P. Harrier: unless one is very sure indeed of one's facts, it is well to say 'thank you' and move on when asked, whether by the local constables or a railroad special agent. I don't know the specific situation in which you found yourself, but it is very likely that the railroad was right; even if not, why make a fuss?

Unfortunately, there are reasons that railroads (all of them) are making increasing efforts to patrol and secure their property: there has been an incredible increase in theft from freight containers, for one thing; for another, they have found that, in general, folks who are injured while on railroad property tend to sue the railroad (the same thing happens in your own backyard, by the way -- someone trespassing in your yard can, and will, sue you if he or she is injured) and it is up to the railroad (or you) to prove that the individual was told to move on and that it (or you) did everything possible to prevent the injury. This costs LOTS of money.

So help all the railfans out (and railroaders, too): keep on being a fan, but do it from what you KNOW absolutely positively is public property, and if asked to move a bit, be a gentleman about it.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by K. P. Harrier

Whoops! NOT the ignorance of Americans, but UNAWARENESS would have been a better word choice. I apologize.

As far as facts, I personally was told to move on by Union Pacific special agents, and explicitly hold the railroad property began at the pavement edge. I believe the masses believe as I do, that one should be able to safely park out of traffic on the shoulder paid for by the taxpayers. If the railroad put signs up declaring their property line and what would happen to the people that safely parked out of traffic, the public outcry would be so great and hostile that the railroad would immediately change its tune, or suffer the consequences if it did not. The railroad playing a bully game simply does not reflect well on the American flag adorning UP locomotives. And what property own should risk his property or house to play the game? Saying one will sue has greater implications than one first thinks. I believe the force of a mob changes even the wickedest of villains! Going it alone is not wise.

First, I would have to ask whether you were on a public or private road. I tend to believe that the city, state, etc...has a ROW as they do for most public roads that extends beyond the actual surface of the road, or the road itself has sufficient paved and lined area such taht a motorist can pull over and stop without impeding the flow of traffic should they have a breakdown (mechanical or mental) or a flat or something. It may very well be the case in this instance that the road is at the edge of the easement/ROW and buts up against the RR ROW.

If the RR (UP or whomever) is enforcing a zone, which extends beyond their property, then then they are in the wrong. You can 1) call the city to find out what the actual lines are, 2) respect their claim and stay off the area, or 3) pu***he press to test button, press the issue and get detained. Then you can get in touch with the ACLU or any one of the number of legal action groups that love taking things to court and see how it goes. There is alot going on in the name of security that is "grey" in terms of rational justification....you might find a judge that is at issue with some of the stuff going on and he might rule in your favor, or you might find one who had a loved one killed in a terrorist bombing or the recent campaigns who tells you to stop whining, support the team and stop wasting his time. Believe me, UP is going to put a mountain of lawyers that all make more a year than I will in 10 on it. In all honesty, UPs enforcement of their ROW has not affected me in any way, nor is it likely to. I imagine its as much about theft, vandalism and protecting themselves againt lawsuit for injured tresspassers as it is about homeland security. But I'll be watching the news to see if the Supreme Court is going to hear "Harrier vs. Union Pacific Railroad"

I'm not sure what property owner has anything to risk from UPs actions. They cannot enforce anything on someone else's private property, even if a claimed 100 or 200 ft ROW extends into it. Unless there is a pre-existing covenant or easement on the property. If so, it should have been made public at purchase during a deed check. If not, you have a case against your title company. So if you are in your back yard, and taking pictures of their trains, there is very little they can do about it.

Mob rules......yeah that's always a good idea........ask any of the folks in the Balkans, SE Asia, Africa, etc about their opinions of the power of the mob. The tyranny of the masses works well too.....brings about all sorts of legislation that helps......we gotta do something about......Propostition 13 ring a history bell for anyone, not sure California has yet recovered from that...

If you are trying to stir up sentiment against some evil UP conspiracy, okay fine. But it doens't look like the Railfan Revolt of 03' has gotten off to a great start.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by K. P. Harrier

The forum to date has spoken words of practicality in the topic SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT BREAKUP UNION PACIFIC? Regardless, though, government tends to do the will of the people. If the average citizen could read WAVE AT TRAIN, GO TO JAIL that was popular at this forum a few months ago, they may come to have a very different view of Union Pacific, a shocking view that may even unsettle most railfans! I believe what is saving UP is the ignorance of the American people. But, even government officials run for cover when public awareness causes the feathers of the masses to become totally ruffled.

I don't particularly CARE for UP,in fact they would rate #1 as my LEAST favorite Railroad, but that's beside the point.

Know what REALLY ticks me off about railroads today,the unsightly way they maintain their right of ways. The local NS mainlines formerly owned by NY, Chi, & St L and the Wabash USED to be kept mowed where they came through town, nd now the near by Wabash is so overgrown with thickets, scrub, and weeds that you couldn't run a mower through there, you'd have to start with a chipper and a stump puller... And a recent walk through of NY, Chi, & St L on the west end proved they were no different Same company now, same ethics.

Their energies to run you off their turf may very well be driven by the desire to not let you observe what else they aren't doing anymore, in terms of responsible property ownership

[mudchicken]

Hey AntiGates:

Being that you seem to be independently wealthy up there on your gold plated soapbox; How about donating your excess wealth to the local roadmaster/ track supervisor who doesn't have two nickels to rub together? The issue gets worse when you consider railroads can no longer spray like they used to either - but farmers can put down stuff that was banned 20 years ago without penalty (custodians of the land? - baloney!)...

Iron Feathers[banghead]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Hey AntiGates:

Being that you seem to be independently wealthy up there on your gold plated soapbox; How about donating your excess wealth to the local roadmaster/ track supervisor who doesn't have two nickels to rub together? The issue gets worse when you consider railroads can no longer spray like they used to either - but farmers can put down stuff that was banned 20 years ago without penalty (custodians of the land? - baloney!)...

Iron Feathers[banghead]

"Gold Plated Soapbox"? Was *that* really necessary? I mean seriously,...yes, I am retired at age 47..does that make me a "bad guy"?....(?)

And as far as that goes, even if I was, I always thought the purpose of discussion forums was to be able to express your (my) opinion, and if the purpose of your post was to give me "the other side to think about, well fine, but there are nicer ways to go about it than "Guilt peddeling".

I shouldn't have to worry about personal attacks simply because I feel a certain way, and am not shy about expressing my opinion .

If you read my comment IN CONTEXT, it merely states that the lack of "mow-ing" (nice pun huh?) bothers me more than the implied evil of uncle pete...

Of course, that may be due in no small part, to the fact that Uncle Pete isn't in my back yard (yet)....[:D]

[mudchicken]

Oh ye great retired one of the same age*:[bow]

Responded to you in context. Responded also from the viewpoint of one who fixes track that the pretty toys run on.

Not in any way/shape/form trying to attack you. Just speaking-up for those who are vilified by those who do not necessarilly see the whole picture. ( [:-,]the same thing goes for the "rough x-ing" complainers that many times fail to see that the crossing is in fair shape, but the highway paving and profile is a sorry mess)

Mudchicken[banghead]

(*) Slowly approaching "older than dirt"

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Oh ye great retired one of the same age*:[bow]

Responded to you in context. Responded also from the viewpoint of one who fixes track that the pretty toys run on.

Not in any way/shape/form trying to attack you. Just speaking-up for those who are vilified by those who do not necessarilly see the whole picture. ( [:-,]the same thing goes for the "rough x-ing" complainers that many times fail to see that the crossing is in fair shape, but the highway paving and profile is a sorry mess)

Mudchicken[banghead]

Reirement is great work, if you can find it. [zzz]

My observation was not intended so much as a critique of the "workers" as it was of the profit seeking companies/property owners who have priorities seeming to be blatently negligent...(don't forget, that as a retired old crudmungeon, I have embaked upon the pursuit of the fabled "perfect lawn" of the sunset generation, chase little boys with their footballs off my green gold regularly, I do,....you see, I have a social disability,...I'm a hardcore "fescue-ist", subscribe to the belief of turf form supremecy,.....and think I might be 'crab-grass-o-phobic'... [soapbox]


I need help and sympathy in other words, ..please send me your money [:-,]

[ironhorseman]

Just a comment on the right of way zones:

You can go to the register of deeds at your county courthouse and they can tell you where property begins and ends and who controls what and where. I highly doubt that in the countryside a railroad can enforce a no trespassing rule at the pavement's edge. In a city that would be a differnt story where property lines butt up against each other all the time.

Now, I don't know how it is other parts of the country. The further east and west one goes the more paranoid the railroads and the public become over security issues. I'm from Kansas and live in Kansas. Here there is lots of space between our streets and highways that run parallel to railroad tracks. Usually there are barbed wire fences to seperate property zones. If not, then there's usually a ditch between the tracks and road. The city, state, and/or county is responsible for the areas just off the sides of the road. They're responsible for keeping the grass cut and the trash picked up all the way to the fence line. It's called state property right of way. It's also called easements. This allows them to expand the highway or bury cables. I don't think I've ever seen railroad crews mowing the grass on the side of the highway and picking up litter. Come to think of it I've never seen them mow grass or pick up litter along the rails either.

If a railroad is claiming they have control over the space between the rails and the edge of the pavement they're yanking your chain. The railroad has control over their easements, as does the states control the easements of their highways.

I'm not saying I'm an expert at railroad law, but I do know a little bit about where public property is. Consult your local county courthouse for property records and consult a lawyer about where rights and the railroads rights begin and end. But I can tell you it's absurd that any railroad can claim the edge of the road. But then again, I don't know what where you were looks like and the circumstances.

I'm a little bit more bolder than you. I'll challenge the authority figure. I'll get his name and job title. I'll go to the railroad lawyers and complain of harassment. If they're not going to help and if managment isn't going to help then go to your county attorney and file a complaint. Say you weren't trespassing, had no intention of trespassing, and had no criminal intent in mind.

A massive uprising is not necessary. It sounds like you want to create some kind of major public discontent. I don't share your views of the Union Pacific. To me they're just another railroad. But as long as I haven't committed a crime I'll be damned if I'm gonna let a railroad boss me around.

If you're gonna be discontent with UP's unreasonable attitude toward railfans maybe you should look to where all this has been created and that is the ones encouraging all this are publications like Trains Magazine, Model Railroader, and the millions of books on railroads, not to mention all the video and audio tapes and all the souvieners and memorabilia. They're the ones making the railroads an attractive nuisance. Instead of attacking the private citizen maybe the railroads should go after these institutions. This is only just.

sarcastically
Iron Horse Man

[dehusman]

So Harrier, exactly where were you when you were approached?

The UP doesn't have special agents lining the right of way so if you encountered two of them that pretty well means you were near something that needed security or where they have had security problems. You may never know what that was of course.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

This is Garbage on Union Pacific *** Davison or who ever started this corporated policy is a DUM-DUM and we thought Haerty & KCS Policy at taking pictures was stupid but is pathoetic and if I was arrested i'd sue UP