Flashin Lights, Lowerin Gates; Indiana Derailment

[Anonymous]

There has been a derailment in NW Indiana today. Not sure which RR but it was a doublestack train. The primary reports were that two garbage trucks hit the train somehow and one of the drivers was killed.

All I have to say to this is:
Do we have to have soldiers armed with Stinger Missles gaurd our nations railway crossings? How many times has this happened in the last year. In the Last decade? In the last century? Any opinios on what we can do to make rail way crossing safer?

[Modelcar]

....I sure have no solution to that problem but I've seen suggestions of installing gate arms on both sides of the road to prevent drivers from driving around the lowered gates, etc.....Surely that would help, but no guarantees and all crossings do not have crossing gates.

[jchnhtfd]

Double gates help, but they ain't idiot proof... and all you have to do to find an idiot is go out to a road -- any road -- and watch the cars and trucks go by. Until driver's license exams approach the rigour of engineer's or pilots, and until the law enforcement types have the time to enforce the existing laws on giving the right of way to trains, all I can say is...

If you see one coming your way, lean on the horns and duck.

[locomutt]

Well, this one could get kinda hairy. Dual gate arms have been used a various
locations on some roads. THE MAJOR problem is COST! Most Railroads don't
have money in the budget for upgrades like that,and state and the federal gov't
is going to be tight with the money. It is a great idea and defenitely lower fatalities
at grade crossings. NOW, get FRA,NHSTA, in to the act and force the Feds to
cough up the money, and we might see some improvement.

When I worked for Safetran Systems designing crossings,we had very similar
discussions all the time,concerning this,and,well,MONEY is the bottom line.

Wish I had more and better sugestions,but I guess it's time to start lobbying
congress for money for the U.S. intead of something else besides WAR.
And please don'''t laugh at me,I spent 23+years in Uncle Sugars service.


Enough for now,

locomutt

(P.S. for Mookie,now you really how the first part of my name came about.)

[Modelcar]

....Yes, I'm 100% with you on backing off on some of the constant War spending...We have lots of needs in this great country too. I too have been employed in War [as a GI], by this great land of ours. And I understand that the cost would be the main concern to installing better crossing gates. But it sure seems like it would help.

[Mookie]

This is something you could throw money at by the train load. I don't forsee this every going away. As long as you have the human animal and trains where this animal can get to them, no matter what barricades you put up, the animal will find a way to get to that train! I am with the railroads - I wouldn't waste the money either! It is a no-win situation! I would work to protect the crew and engines as much as possible and nuts to the public! If they are so ignorant - which they are - as to ignore warning signs and deliberately defeat their purpose, then I would make sure the engines and crew are protected as much as possible!

And don't even let me get started on the war!

Mookie!

[wabash1]

if the judges wouldnt let the guilty go then maybe things be differant in this world. pure and simple start revoking drivers lic, on every driver caught racing the train. revoke them for 2 years. no hardship lic either. This means that if you make your living driving then you might be a little more carefull if your family is going to go hungry. A second conviction is 5 years lose of lic and 90 days in the gray bar motel. if there is not space in the gray bar motel put up a big fence tents and make a jail out of a tent city. ( saw that on cops ) with out tv or any other luxuary just food and bed. But in the defense of some of the public its hard to tell them its against the law to go around the gates when the city cops do it all the time.. there is 2 places where i run and the city cops come around the gates all the time. they just dont think the same laws they are paid and sworn to uphold apply to them

[JoeKoh]

that explains the backup this morning at work .Ns trains were moving slow on the old nyc line.I stopped at a crossing where a train was switching and almost got rear ended by some ---- lady(sorry mookie)driving and yaking on a cellphone! I just wanted to make sure an intermodal wasn't passing the train switching.
stay safe
Joe

[Modelcar]

....And along side of the cellphone might have been a bowl of cerial. I have actually witnessed that situation here in Muncie as someone was following me several years ago. But back to the problem of crossings and the danger involved.
Just doing a little thinking about this, I must at least in part, agree with Jen...as long as there is appropriate signs and lights and hopefully a lowered gate....the railroad has done it's part at that point...considering they are also blowing the warning horn too, not much else should be required of them.

[vsmith]

This was posted on aonther topic, but with nodds to Kevenstherrman:

Sung to "The Battle Hyme of the Republic"


The gates were clearly lowered, and the train was on it's way.
But I ain’t stopping cause by God I have the right of way.
My SUV went round the gates and the train did not give way.
The train still marches on!

(chorus) Glory, Glory, What a hell of a way to die!
Glory, Glory, My car is flying thru the sky!
Glory, Glory, This ain’t the way I’m supposed to die!
The Train still marches on!

(chorus)

My SUV was first to cross, I had the right of way.
Because my cause is righteous, I ignored the crossing gate.
Now St Peter tells me I’m going to go the other way.
The train still marches on...

(chorus)

My family now is grieving and all they do is cry.
Because I was a stupid *** and wouldn’t let the train go by.
My Lawyer now will sue because faultless was I.
The trains still march on!

(chorus)

Enjoy the chorus of stupidity out there.

P.S. This is intended to be a real look at just how serious the consiquences of trying to beat a train can be. Just with sort of a Mad TV bend to it.

[edblysard]

In all seriousness, Mookie hit it dead center. (yup, thats a bad pun)
No matter what type of crossing barricade you install, someone, somewhere, will come up with a way to defeat it, and others will die trying.
There is no easy solution to this.
Like Wabash said, if the cops could enforce the laws, it would help, but there isnt enough cops on patrol now to handle all the other priority calls, and grade crossing violations are really low on their list.
Unless, of course, it turns into a grade crossing fatality, in which case every cop, wrecker driver, and fire truck for several square miles will show up, just to get a look.
And like wabash, we have a few local cops who disregard the gates, lights, bells and the really loud horn also, ignoring the very law they should be upholding.
In most places, there isnt a need to make the penality and more severe, its a stiff fine down here the first time, license loss and jail the second time around.
The problem is, it never happens in front of the cops, so they cant issue the ticket.
About once a year, we get police officers(brass type) from the small surrounding cities along with HPD to ride on our locomotives, with patrol cars hidden along the way near crossings.
When JQPublic does their thing, the cop ridding the train calls his patrol units, and the fun begins.
But you cant do this every day.
So about the only thing that may slow them down would be the camera, taking a photo of them running the gates, and the local police sending them a citation in the mail, just like they do with some busy school zones and certain intersections where running red light is a major problem.
But again, Mookies right, no matter what you end up doing, someone is going to try to get around it.
Amazing, how little regard humans have for other peoples lives, and how much less they seem to have for their own around trains.
Yeah Jim, it is one every 90 minutes in the US.
Astounding, aint it?
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[JoeKoh]

My sister was just here.She said people out her way feel if the gates aren't down its safe to go.Bad idea very bad idea!!!
stay safe
Joe

[locomutt]

I agree with all, especially with La Mook. The idiots should't but do.
With all the warning equipment people should obey. Around the
Louisville area some of the smaller cities actually have a ban in
place so the engineers don't blow horns at crossings,J Q Public
keeps complaining because they can't get their beauty sleep.

There is plenty more, but we'll save it for another day.
From being a firefighter/emt,I have as many of those as I have
war stories.

locomutt

[techguy57]

Okay, so as usual I have to add my two cents. Now I have to agree with Da Mook and Ed, the problem won't go away as long as people continue to be the real problem. For example, I don't know how the wind has been where you guys are lately but Chicago and Milwaukee got pounded with 50-60 mph gusts the other day. I'm driving home in this, trying to keep my lil' S-10 onthe road, and notice that one of the crossing gates at a grade crossing I pass everyday got twisted up something fierce, presumably by the wind. So I decide to do the good Samaritan thing. I pull over and call the UP crossing hotline(its in my speed dial, [:D]just kidding, and notice that I actually pull over to make my call!). Now the crossing is kinda tricky: It is very near a large heavily traveled intersection. The road is one lane either direction plus a center lane for left turns. It is synched up with the traffic lights on either side of the crossing but there is room for one car between the street intersection and the grade crossing and the light at the intersection is slightly delayed so that no cars get trapped in the crossing. (A nearby town experienced a nasty train vs. school bus accident which resulted in this system).

Now, as I'm sitting there, the Metra is coming and the gates go down, but remember that the one gate is bent (though thankfully not bad enough to be in the way of the train thanks to the angle of the crossing). Now the gate isn't blocking the left-hand turn lane anymore and I watch not one but two cars acknowledge the intersection signal but not the crossing signal and continue through the crossing and car #2 gets stuck btween the intersection and the crossing. Since the train is traveling at 50-60mph through that crossing I was amazed that there wasn't an accident. Can you imagine if that had been a delivery truck or something. I'm sure that the train still gave driver #2 a good scare though. Maybe net time he'll be a little more alert. Or maybe he'll just compalin that the trains are going too fast.

Just thought I'd share my thoughts.[8D]

Mike

[ironhorseman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by LaGrangeIll

There has been a derailment in NW Indiana today. Not sure which RR but it was a doublestack train. The primary reports were that two garbage trucks hit the train somehow and one of the drivers was killed.

All I have to say to this is:
Do we have to have soldiers armed with Stinger Missles gaurd our nations railway crossings? How many times has this happened in the last year. In the Last decade? In the last century? Any opinios on what we can do to make rail way crossing safer?

Simple: you install steel walls that come out of the ground that block the crossings. You allow extra time for vehicles to get off if they're caught when the gate comes up and if they can't get out you build a side road for the vehicle to pull off, long enough as in the case maybe a double long tractor-trailer rig could fit on. Promblem solved.

[FThunder11]

I think they sould rienforce the front of the train. Let everybody in the world know, and get rid of the gates. Any idiot out there who wants to out run a train, better a a really fast car or they are road kill, thats how i see it.

[joseph2]

An Indiana newspaper said severe fog caused the accident.A cop said he could only see the strobe light on the locomotive,everything else was hidden.

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by joseph2

An Indiana newspaper said severe fog caused the accident.A cop said he could only see the strobe light on the locomotive,everything else was hidden.

Severe fog never caused an accident. Folks who drive too fast (or run a train too fast -- sadly, it happens...) in severe fog cause accidents. C'mon. I can't remember the number of the rule, but 'under control at such a speed as to be able to stop within half the range of vision' seems to stick in my mind...

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jchnhtfd

QUOTE: Originally posted by joseph2

An Indiana newspaper said severe fog caused the accident.A cop said he could only see the strobe light on the locomotive,everything else was hidden.

Severe fog never caused an accident. Folks who drive too fast (or run a train too fast -- sadly, it happens...) in severe fog cause accidents. C'mon. I can't remember the number of the rule, but 'under control at such a speed as to be able to stop within half the range of vision' seems to stick in my mind...

In my book it is 6.27 and 6.28 that make these statements. There is probably more, but don't have time to look them up right now.

Mook

[Anonymous]

There were several things you all missed in this instance. It was real foggy in the area of this wreck. Visability was limited. US421 is mostly straight as an arrow but narrow through here. (there are deep ditches on both sides and no shoulders) The railroad crossing is a slight "hump" The speed limit here is 55 MPH but most don't do it.
It was early morning and statistics have proven time and time again that many accidents happen just before daylight when the body clock is at lowest ebb.

This does not in anyway t let the drivers of the trucks that hit the train off the hook.
If anything the real culprit here was the trucking company or gravel pit that employed these 2. If they paid a living wage by the hour instead of the percentage of the load, these 2 might not have been hurrying to get the first load of the day.
Until the trucking industry changes it's ways, no one on the highway is safe.
I know, I work in the industry and am familar with those 2 drivers! Nuff Said

[Supermicha]

I think there are different possibilities. Here in germany, all mainlines have gates, mostly double, lights and very loud bells. Every line which is operated with more than 160 km/h does not have any crossings. the street must go over the tracks by bridge or under it in a small tunnel. And all crossings are secured by signals. If something is wrong and the gate is not closed, the engeneer will see a special signal and must pass the crossing with max 10 km/h, so he has enough time to brake in a emergency case.

The problem are the people. Most have no time, so they don´t want to wait for the train and go or drive around the gates while the train is coming. **** happens

[eolafan]

OK guys and gals, it seems to me I remember we had an approx. year long battle over the same subject (i.e., who is responsible for grade crossing collissions) and we had some schlep banned from the forums due to his inscencent badgering of all of us about how the railroads were in a conspiracy to kill us all off at the crossings (or some other stupid thread such as that). Nobody is going to win or lose this argument, so let's move on to other more positive things, how about it?

[TH&B]

I read in a car mag about auto safety, "you can keep making the car safer and adding safety features forever but there will always be someone who will figure out how to kill themself in a new safer car"
I beleive over and underpaths is the way to go, AT LEAST MAIN STREETS IN TOWNS, of course I understand not every side road. There are way to many busy major crossings at level.
Everyone sais it cost too much, but you would save $$ in less delays, more productivety, less lawsuites, less injuries etc. Many cities NEED rr level crossings to make $$ on fines given to the rr for exessive blocking. The same goes with parking, can't solve that problem either because the city needs the parking fines revenues! The moneys are there but spent all wrong.

[tree68]

Back in the 60's there was a big to-do about "killer trees" at the side of roads. One editorial on the subject pointed out that even if you got rid of the killer trees, spaced the cars out so they couldn't run into each other, and somehow fixed the intersection issue, some bozo would roll his car and kill himself anyhow.

A couple of years ago a young soldier on the military base where I work decided that he didn't want to wait for the crossing to clear (they were doubling out a train of empty hoppers - the loco was blocking the crossing while the air came up), so he went around. He found out his SUV didn't q u i t e have enough clearance to get over the rails... I heard the engineer say on the scanner that he'd never seen anything like it, and I'm pretty sure he's been in the business a while. At first glance it looked like the loco had pushed the SUV down the tracks, but they never touched...

[daveklepper]

Great Battle Hymn of the Republic song takeoff. Might work well in teenage driver education classrooms! But the whole car culture is as fault. GM: Make the car the equivalent of the home as an entertainment and communications center and they hired MIT with millions of dollars of consulting to do it! Eastern newspapers are full of stories of hit and runs getting minor citations instead of maslaughter verdicts from car culture judges. How much time does the average American (not railfans) spend on good works (Church, Synagogue, Boy Scouts, Red Cross, whatever) as compared with polishing and otherwise concerned with his car?

[kenneo]

Supermicha:

You are absolutely correct.

Where in Germany do you live. Used to live in Wiesbaden.

[Supermicha]

@ kenneo:

I live in Dresden in eastern germany. Our state, called saxony has the most rail lines per square kilometer in europe. but we have not much more accidents at crossings like otherwhere.

[rrnut282]

Some posts have referred to the railroads not having enough money for crossing gates. Not so. These gates are highway control devices (not railroad signals) and therefore bought and paid for by federal highway funds. By some ancient agreement, probably having to do with the fact that the railroad was there first and the state had to ask permission to build a road across the tracks, the railroads just have to install and maintain them. It is your local Dept of Trans (with the blessing of the feds) that determines what crossings get protected. Take a look at uprr.com under media, for a better explaination.

Also I agree with most of the sentiments here, you have to build a better crossing gate to find a better idiot.

[Anonymous]

They shoud of given $25 Billion of the $87 Billion that Bush wants to railroad saftey