Somebody help me out here, Is there any Product or Raw material that HAS to go by train?

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

I do know of one paticular chemical that I have never seen move by truck, and I think evry state's DOT forbids to move by water...
Hydrocyanic Acid....
Liquid cyanide...under pressure, it is a liquid, at atmosphere, it is a gas...(yes,, the gas chamber stuff) it is used in making some plactics, and recovering precious metals...


I have only seen this stuff move via rail...
Ed

There are some other chemicals such a chlorine, benzine and VCM where you do not want the stuff on the highway where it can be hit by every drunk driver in North America.

[Anonymous]

There are certain chemicals that you will NEVER EVER see on a 18 wheeler. These chemicals pose such a huge threat to life. If for example I carried something like that thru the GWB in NYC and wrecked in the caves at rush hour thousands will die. They all would line right behind me at the assembly roll call asking why did I ever haul that stuff.

As for the Arkansas Farmer versus the Coal Super story I have a big smile on me and alot of weight off my heart today.

God bless the USA.

[kevarc]

Chlorine does get shipped by truck. We buy it 1 ton cylinders, usually 2 at a time. They must be shipped by truck from the supplier to our plants. NOTE: one of them sits right nest to the BNSF, but there is no way I want that much chlorine sitting in any of my plants.

I do not know of any that are prohibited from shipping by truck. Like with the Chlorine to our plants, there are times that things MUST be shipped by truck. And if you don't want to, there are a lot of others out there who will.

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

I've been out of the LA scene for a few years (disclaimer),but...
The only pipeline I know of is the one from Bakersfield(Taft) to Mojave(Fleta). The tank train still runs from Mojave to Dolores. The pipeline just eliminated the run over the hill.

No, the Mojave to Dolores run was eliminated in 1999, three years after the Mojave terminal opened. The Bakersfield Californian had an article about it in May 1999. Their online archieves do not go back that far, however, you can probably buy a copy of the article from them. Paramount Petroleum is using the Mojave terminal as an asphalt terminal (http://www.ppcla.com/Paramount/l_mojave.html). If you cannot view the photopgraphs in the Paramount Petroleum link in Netscape, try Internet Explorer.

http://www.aspeneg.com/L2/L2_AIR_PacificPipeline.htm
http://www.pacificenergypartners.com/iPACHD2c.htm
http://www.pacificenergypartners.com/IPACHD2WCO.htm
http://www.pacificenergypartners.com/iPAC2H01.htm
http://www.pacificenergypartners.com/iPACH3b.htm
It looks like Anschutz was involved with it.

I stand corrected, sorry I've been gone for 5 years.

[Anonymous]

How about rails? Never seen a truck that long.

m

[Anonymous]

Truckers like to haul high revenue freight and leave the railroads with the bulky low revenue business. Railroads haul 42 percent of the total US ton-miles but only receive 10 percent of the total revenue. Coal accounts for 44 percent of the tonnage hauled and makes up 21 percent of the revenue of Class 1 railroads.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

There are certain chemicals that you will NEVER EVER see on a 18 wheeler. These chemicals pose such a huge threat to life. If for example I carried something like that thru the GWB in NYC and wrecked in the caves at rush hour thousands will die. They all would line right behind me at the assembly roll call asking why did I ever haul that stuff.

As for the Arkansas Farmer versus the Coal Super story I have a big smile on me and alot of weight off my heart today.

God bless the USA.

HazMat shippments by trucks are NOT allowed to be transported through tunels... they have to go around them.... i havent found a city or interstate that in any state that alows HazMat moves through tunels...
csx engineer

[harpwolf]

I seem to recall seeing a tunnel posted with signs disallowing hazmat, except between 2am and 4am.

[tatans]

Are there really any hobos left, surely if they exist there must be a new term for them, probably now they are called criminals, are there any hobo jungles??? has anyone out there ever shared a cell with a real live "hobo" ? ? ?

[ajmiller]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

Are there really any hobos left, surely if they exist there must be a new term for them, probably now they are called criminals, are there any hobo jungles??? has anyone out there ever shared a cell with a real live "hobo" ? ? ?

New terms. Hmmm...Locationally challenged?

[Overmod]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

There are certain chemicals that you will NEVER EVER see on a 18 wheeler. These chemicals pose such a huge threat to life. If for example I carried something like that thru the GWB in NYC and wrecked in the caves at rush hour thousands will die. They all would line right behind me at the assembly roll call asking why did I ever haul that stuff...

HazMat shippments by trucks are NOT allowed to be transported through tunels... they have to go around them.... i havent found a city or interstate that in any state that alows HazMat moves through tunels...
csx engineer

csx, GWB + George Washington Bridge. I assume he meant going northbound/eastbound on the lower (Martha Washington) deck, because there is a long rock cut across the head of Manhattan with "project" apartment houses (and a large bus terminal) constructed above the highway. A major spill of volatile chemical there would, indeed, endanger thousands. If I recall correctly, there are prohibitions on bottled gas, etc. going via the lower deck for this general reason.

There are a couple of alternatives to the GWB for hazmat moves, including Outerbridge/Goethals to Verrazano to 278 and the relatively new connection up 287 and the Tappan Zee and then across Westchester. I won't speak for truckers regarding their convenience and safety, but will say that they don't pose the immediate threat of holocaust that was (rightly!) mentioned.

[TheS.P.caboose]

The loaded oil cans aka BKDOU first started on September 11, 1983. It was loaded at Saco, about 7 miles railroad west of Bakersfield, and taken to the station at Bakersfield where yhe head end crew would pick it up and helpers added near Kern Junction. This train would have 6 or 7 units on the point and a 6 or 7 unit helper set mid train. I'm not sure when, but the oil cans started rolling out of Mojave to the refinery at Sepluveda and Alameda near Dolores Yard. And yes the train in 1999 was terminated along this line. My unterestanding was Shell Oil was looking for an economical way to get their product to the refinery as inexpensively and fast as possable.

Now days the Union Pacific does run the loaded and empty oil cans on the coastline between the Shell Oil refinery and Wunpost. Wunpost being north of San Luis Obispo. With the horsepower been increasced from 3,600 hp on a big unit to todays 4,000+ hp the Union Pacific can run this train with 3 big units along the coast.

I hope this helps with bringing things more up to date with this train.

[Anonymous]

Nothing absolutely HAS to go be train, but economies of scale clearly favor movement by rail for anything that has to move in large numbers (which leaves out rail passenger advocates).

[TheS.P.caboose]

If I understand cost accounting correctly, it's less expensive per ton to go by rail.

You are right, futuremodal, nothing has to go by rail.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

There are certain chemicals that you will NEVER EVER see on a 18 wheeler. These chemicals pose such a huge threat to life. If for example I carried something like that thru the GWB in NYC and wrecked in the caves at rush hour thousands will die. They all would line right behind me at the assembly roll call asking why did I ever haul that stuff...

HazMat shippments by trucks are NOT allowed to be transported through tunels... they have to go around them.... i havent found a city or interstate that in any state that alows HazMat moves through tunels...
csx engineer

csx, GWB + George Washington Bridge. I assume he meant going northbound/eastbound on the lower (Martha Washington) deck, because there is a long rock cut across the head of Manhattan with "project" apartment houses (and a large bus terminal) constructed above the highway. A major spill of volatile chemical there would, indeed, endanger thousands. If I recall correctly, there are prohibitions on bottled gas, etc. going via the lower deck for this general reason.

There are a couple of alternatives to the GWB for hazmat moves, including Outerbridge/Goethals to Verrazano to 278 and the relatively new connection up 287 and the Tappan Zee and then across Westchester. I won't speak for truckers regarding their convenience and safety, but will say that they don't pose the immediate threat of holocaust that was (rightly!) mentioned.

oh ok..my bad....when i saw the word "caves" i thought it was NYC slang for a tunel..lol
csx engineer

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheS.P.caboose

The loaded oil cans aka BKDOU first started on September 11, 1983. It was loaded at Saco, about 7 miles railroad west of Bakersfield, and taken to the station at Bakersfield where yhe head end crew would pick it up and helpers added near Kern Junction. This train would have 6 or 7 units on the point and a 6 or 7 unit helper set mid train. I'm not sure when, but the oil cans started rolling out of Mojave to the refinery at Sepluveda and Alameda near Dolores Yard. And yes the train in 1999 was terminated along this line. My unterestanding was Shell Oil was looking for an economical way to get their product to the refinery as inexpensively and fast as possable.

Now days the Union Pacific does run the loaded and empty oil cans on the coastline between the Shell Oil refinery and Wunpost. Wunpost being north of San Luis Obispo. With the horsepower been increasced from 3,600 hp on a big unit to todays 4,000+ hp the Union Pacific can run this train with 3 big units along the coast.

I hope this helps with bringing things more up to date with this train.

I know it was fall 1996 when the Mojave terminal started operations. I think it was sometime in October.

I am not sure if Shell still owns it, however, it is ConocoPhillips (Tosco) that operates that refinery. And of course the oil goes via pipeline from there to the ExxonMobil refinery in Torrance.

When the Oil Cans detoured through here in January the power was an SD90MAC, AC6000CW and something else. The weird thing was that after the first few days, they cut the train down from the 78 or 91 cars it usually has to just 26.

[Puckdropper]

It's not exactly a product or raw material that HAS to be moved by rail, but in many places it's extracted by rail because the trucks can't get up there: Wood. I don't know of any foresting operations now, but I'm sure everyone remembers the purpose of the Shay locomotive. :-)

Anything longer than about 52' would have to go by rail or be cut up. There's no way a truck could legally transport it on the highway. (They have enough trouble with their 53' trailers sometimes, I don't want to see bigger!)

[dknelson]

It's a trick question. EMPTIES have to move by rail.
Dave Nelson

[CANADIANPACIFIC2816]

All kinds of commodities are shipped by rail because shipping from point A to point B by rail is a lot more cost effective than shipping the same commodities by truck. This includes coal, grains of all types, finished lumber, petroleum products, industrial chemicals of all kinds and the raw materials that go into the making of concrete.

[Anonymous]

As long as the government imposes artificial limits on the length and gross weight of trucks, environmental constraints on construction of coal slurry pipelines concurrent with the continued requirement of low sulfer coal for power plants in the East and South, and drawdowns of barge shipping channels, there will be a market for movement by rail.

Conversely, if the limit on GVW for trucks is replaced by a per axle load limit, if LCV's are allowed in longer consists than we have today (e.g. 5 trailers per cab), if "clean coal" technology takes hold en masse wherein higher sulfer coals can be used in plants currently using PRB coals, if barge shipping waterways in the U.S. are expanded into regions such as Montana and Colorado with increased draft of 14', if most new coal fired power plants are located mineside rather than being located near Urbania, if the Panama Canal is expanded to allow the 8,000 TEU containerships through, and if environmental regulations, high energy costs, and captivity to one Class I railroad drives most U.S. manufacturing overseas, it is conceivable that there would be no real "need" for 25 mph (average speed) railroading in the U.S.

The only saving grace for the concept of railroading would be the institution of HSR for time sensitive freight (and as an adjuct passengers). No matter how much a truck can haul in terms of tonnage and/or number of trailers in practice, they are still limited to around 70 mph max simply due to the fact that they have no self steering mechanisms like railroads. No matter how many waterways were constructed, there is a limit on how much freight can move profitably at 7 mph. No matter how many pipelines are constructed, they are limited in the types of commodities they can handle.

The most profitable commodities for transport are those which are time sensitive. Time sensitive freight tends to pay premiums. It is the one segment of the freight mix that cannot move by pipeline or barge, and the only reason so much time sensitive freight moves by trucks is that railroad have sold out to the concept of maximum load factor and "warehousing" commodities in transit (and warehousing by its very economic nature is a waste of capital). Leave the concept of warehousing in transit to the barge lines. Railroads can conceivably move commodities over steel rails at 125+ mph for long stretches of time, something truckers will never be able to achieve. Railroad technology is the only way to move bulk commodities at speed, irregardless of relative weight of the commodity. Coal and grain can move in a HSR system just as well as UPS packages. Time is money, and empowering revenue freight movements in an expedient manner means a better utilization of capital.

So to reiterate, nothing HAS to go by train under the current 25mph average speed railroad system. However, under a HSR freight system, time sensitive commodities absolutely would HAVE to move by rail.

[tatans]

According to this forum :TRAINS" someone posted a note on seeing a train hauling narrow gauge cars for some railway, hmmmm--- trains hauling trains---what a concept ! !

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

According to this forum :TRAINS" someone posted a note on seeing a train hauling narrow gauge cars for some railway, hmmmm--- trains hauling trains---what a concept ! !

That's how NC Transportation Museum sent the Graham County RR Shay to Railfest '03.[:p]

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

According to this forum :TRAINS" someone posted a note on seeing a train hauling narrow gauge cars for some railway, hmmmm--- trains hauling trains---what a concept ! !

I have seen an US Army switcher on a flatcar. I could not see much of the switcher, other train cars were blocking most of it, so I do not know the model.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

According to this forum :TRAINS" someone posted a note on seeing a train hauling narrow gauge cars for some railway, hmmmm--- trains hauling trains---what a concept ! !

yep...seen it in person on more then one occaion...it is an intersting sight to see..lol
csx engineer

[csxengineer98]

No matter how much a truck can haul in terms of tonnage and/or number of trailers in practice, they are still limited to around 70 mph max simply due to the fact that they have no self steering mechanisms like railroads.

[Anonymous]

Lumber, ore of all types, petrochemicals, dry goods, commodities of all types, heavy equipment, scrap metal and anything else that can be loaded and moved by rail...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98


No matter how much a truck can haul in terms of tonnage and/or number of trailers in practice, they are still limited to around 70 mph max simply due to the fact that they have no self steering mechanisms like railroads.

wow....what country do you live in? i have been passed by trucks on the highways when i was doing 80.... the truck can go as fast as they want it to go..as long as it donst have a governer on the engin...a steering mechanism has nothing to do with it at all....
csx engineer