Oxnard smashup

[dharmon]

The video clips that I've seen start with the light green and the flashers and gate starting. It would be nice to see it a few seconds earlier to ascertain when the light turned and the flashers started. If the traffic lights and gates were tied, it seems that the green would stay a few seconds to protect the cars already in motion going through the crossing as they passed through the intersection to clear. But that wouldn't provide enough time for some idiot (hmmm) to go from a dead stop and try to beat the gates and apparently this driver was the only one to try to do so. Unfortunately from the looks of it, the truck driver had already pulled up too far to see the flashers too his right. The view from the other side of the intersection shows that the road had a divider and the gate on the other side might not be readily apparent since it didn't come in front of the lane the the truck was in. I still find it hard to believe that he/she was the only one there that didn't notice that one of the things..umm me .....is not like the others....In my opinion it was target fixation. So fixated on the light that the driver disregarded all other indications..the same thing that makes perfectly good airplanes drive into the ground during combat training. On another clip I saw the news crew panned up and down the road that paralleled the tracks. It did not appear that there were any obstructions. And the pickup trcuk to the right of the rig, who would have had the view of the train obstrcucted by the truck, elected not to go. hmmm.

[Anonymous]

Dan is dead on (pun not intended). His analysis strikes me as incisive. The previous 30 seconds of video would prove what seem to me to be excellent deductive reasoning.

Served on a few boards, have you, Mr. Harmon?

OS

[Anonymous]

With a name like SMUCKERS it HAS to be GOOD!!

LC

[adrianspeeder]

Target fixation is my guess to. Focusing on the light and not everything going on around you. I done before. Looking at a pedestrian blocking where i wanted to go, and not looking at a car coming towards me. But i got lucky looking at the last second before moving.

Just let it all shake out and we will then know what happened.

Adrianspeeder

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

My previous post regarding the trucker's failure to obey signals needs to be softened a bit. I dont think the driver was able to see the red signals on his right or the gate above him coming down.

.

Actually you need to be more stridently against the trucker!

Any trucker, that operates his truck and 53 foot trailer onto a railroad crossing, without knowing he will clear the crossing in a single continuous movement is a blathering idiot and is not deserving of holding a CDL.. If you don't know you can clear the crossing, you don't get on the crossing until you know you can clear it.

BRAIN DEAD!

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

With a name like SMUCKERS it HAS to be GOOD!!

LC

Are you saying the incident created a traffic jam?

[kenneo]

Say Cheese, OS.

Just for the info of it -- The gates are supposed to be down for no less than 20 seconds prior to the train occuping the crossing. Add the cycle time (5 seconds?). Either the tape was editted after the light started, or that crossing protection is not timed properly. Add into the above times the interlock with the traffic signals so that the crossing can be cleared, and you are pushing one minute from the time the light started to cycle and the collision.

Several things went wrong here, and probably all of them have been mentioned. But the one thing that any driver should do when caught in such a situation is to drive on through if you are afoul the track. If not, don't move forward. I can think of ways that the truck could have gotten stranded without the driver having disobeyed any traffic rule, but not going forward through the red and clearing the crossing was definately not smart.

Dan and OS and Mudchicken and Ed, among others will testify to the following == "It is easier to ask for forgiveness than to seek permission". Run the damn red!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

My previous post regarding the trucker's failure to obey signals needs to be softened a bit. I dont think the driver was able to see the red signals on his right or the gate above him coming down.

.

Actually you need to be more stridently against the trucker!

Any trucker, that operates his truck and 53 foot trailer onto a railroad crossing, without knowing he will clear the crossing in a single continuous movement is a blathering idiot and is not deserving of holding a CDL.. If you don't know you can clear the crossing, you don't get on the crossing until you know you can clear it.

BRAIN DEAD!

I am well aware of that. I had to think about how the video, accident and ideas were going around. If I was there in person I would have yanked him out of th cab yelling [censored]

Believe me, I have witnessed some DUMB things and had gotten into it a few times myself.

One driver in particular in Chester PA sees a gigantic sign on the corner.. NO RIGHT Turn Cleareance 12.0 feet.. (Amtrack station bridge) what does he do? make a right. THe left turn would have taken him into the container port and he did not do it. Proceeded to rip the roof off the trailer and destroy the cargo in the high part. I recall that day as if it was yesterday. I guess something magnetic attracting dumb drivers on that bridge.

I too have a problem with the lack of video room prior to and after the hit. That was something worth looking into how long the signals and lights were activated.

My final verdict still stands. Bill the ex-driver for all the loss and damage.

[dharmon]

Upon closer look from the across the intersection camera, although the gate for the opposing traffic does not come down in front of the truck, there is a crossbuck in the center divide. So even if the driver was pulled up far enough that he couldn't see the one to the right with the gate, the one on the left should have been blaring in his ear. Other than target fixation, the only thing I can think of, without "the rest of the story" is that he realized that the hood would be hit by the gate, and tried to beat it, not thinking that it would come down so fast, or that like a garage door it would be interupted if something got in its path. ....Oh well that's what they pay investigators for. ....dharmon USI (Unneccessary Scene Investigator) signing off..

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

My previous post regarding the trucker's failure to obey signals needs to be softened a bit. I dont think the driver was able to see the red signals on his right or the gate above him coming down.

.

Actually you need to be more stridently against the trucker!

Any trucker, that operates his truck and 53 foot trailer onto a railroad crossing, without knowing he will clear the crossing in a single continuous movement is a blathering idiot and is not deserving of holding a CDL.. If you don't know you can clear the crossing, you don't get on the crossing until you know you can clear it.

BRAIN DEAD!

I am a Tractor Trailer driver and couldn't agree with your post more!!! The key here is "Crossing The Track, In A Single Continuous Movement". One of the most important things stressed in any Driving School. At least it was in mine. It might be a poorly designed intersection/R.R. Crossing, bad light timing, poor line of sight, a combination of these things or whatever. Bottom Line is--A driver of a Commericial Vehicle should NEVER stop on an active railroad crossing. NEVER-EVER-Under any circumstances. The driver btw, was a female (not that it matters). Thankfully, NO ONE was killed or seriously hurt. This gal was lucky. Her CDL should be revoked for this incident, and she should NEVER again be behind the wheel of a Commericial vehicle. This type of carelesness in unacceptable!!!

[dldance]

the full video will be played in court many times and of course the investigators have it today. However, news rooms edit or cut video segements to fit a specific time slot - just show the gore and let the investigators do the real analysis. I have also seen situations where newsrooms release incomplete information at the request of the investigators to avoid potential jury bias problems, or to avoid appearing prejudicial, etc.

dd

[zardoz]

This incident is similar to one that happened in Fox River Grove, Ill a few years ago when a CNW Metra suburban train hit a school bus. Same scenario: traffic lights very close to tracks with insufficient space for a long vehicle to sit at the light and clear the tracks.

If I remember correctly, a number of students were killed. So do not get your hopes too high that the incident refered to by the thread poster will have any significant effect on the way traffic signals and intersections are repaired. If the death of some kids does not cause a change, a few strawberries will not either.

It always amazed me that a person will, when faced with a similar situation (car stopped on tracks), not move forward or backward to get out of the way of a train. I've hit cars that all they had to do was break the gates to move, and they still sit there and get hit. I suppose if one is stupid enough to stop on the tracks in the first place, we should not expect any sudden intelligence to emerge.

I do think, however, that a certain amount of panic sets in when a driver realizes the situation they are in. The mind, faced with such an incredible scenario, cannot process information properly and 'freezes', with the result that no decision can be made.

It is somewhat analogous to martial art training. The first few years are spent learning the moves; the rest of the time is spent having those moves become so a part of your self, that if you are ever faced with a situation that you need to use those skills, they flow naturally, without the need to 'think' about what you need to do. My teacher always told me that if you have to think about what you want to do, it is already too late and you have lost.

[ChuckCobleigh]

The Federal Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) has quite a bit of guidance for situations like the intersection and crossing in this crash, so the Illinois collision probably had a lot to do with enhancing the guidance. Unfortunately, local authorities do not always use the best judgment in laying these things out and coordinating traffic signals with train movements. California's Department of Transportation has recently replaced the state Traffic Manual with the MUTCD wth some California modifications and additions, which may eventually help the locals do things a little better.

I do feel, though, that giving a red signal indication to traffic trying to egress from the crossing when a train is coming is not a very bright design. It just adds to the risk.

This will all be sorted out in the courts and the regulatory bodies. That is one prediction that I am sure is correct.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

This incident is similar to one that happened in Fox River Grove, Ill a few years ago when a CNW Metra suburban train hit a school bus. Same scenario: traffic lights very close to tracks with insufficient space for a long vehicle to sit at the light and clear the tracks.

If I remember correctly, a number of students were killed. So do not get your hopes too high that the incident refered to by the thread poster will have any significant effect on the way traffic signals and intersections are repaired. If the death of some kids does not cause a change, a few strawberries will not either.

It always amazed me that a person will, when faced with a similar situation (car stopped on tracks), not move forward or backward to get out of the way of a train. I've hit cars that all they had to do was break the gates to move, and they still sit there and get hit. I suppose if one is stupid enough to stop on the tracks in the first placewe should not expect any sudden intelligence to emerge. ,

I do think, however, that a certain amount of panic sets in when a driver realizes the situation they are in. The mind, faced with such an incredible scenario, cannot process information properly and 'freezes', with the result that no decision can be made.

It is somewhat analogous to martial art training. The first few years are spent learning the moves; the rest of the time is spent having those moves become so a part of your self, that if you are ever faced with a situation that you need to use those skills, they flow naturally, without the need to 'think' about what you need to do. My teacher always told me that if you have to think about what you want to do, it is already too late and you have lost.

Well said. The most accurate statement, however is "I suppose if one is stupid enough to stop on the tracks in the first place we should not expect any sudden intelligence to emerge". You hit that nail squarely on the head!

--JD

[tatans]

The photographer was filming the intersection as he was involved in an accident nearby and a lawsuit resulted, hence the video, he had not been sitting there for 23 days. There was a bus accident caught on film at this crossing, along with many near misses, so either the railroad or the city is directly at fault and heads should roll, but of course "it's no ones fault ---again"

[ajmiller]

CNN has an article with some info about the accident and the video here:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/18/crash.video.ap/index.html

[Anonymous]

a little personl observation on this topic....

I am in Oxnard at least 10 times a year with my 18 wheeler, and I almost always cross the tracks where that wreck happened. first off, you can see that the truck driver stopped on the tracks, with his cab just past the crossing gates. so the truck driver had no idea that a train was coming and he could not see that the lights were flashing or that the gates were coming down. I dont know how he could not have heard the train horn. but when you are trapped by a red light, you see that you just hit the gates, and you hear a train coming, you go into sensory overload and a lot of people just freeze up.

when you are at that crossing, if you look to the right you see the entrance to the small yard at oxnard, then the tracks curve to the right where the depot is. when you look to the left (the direction that this train came from) you have nothing but straight tracks for a few miles. all it takes is one glance and you can see a train quite a long way off. to me, this looks like another case of someone not paying any attention whatsoever to what was going on.

[Anonymous]

I heard the truck driver wasn't a "HE" but was named Teresa--sounds like a woman. And she messed up, big time.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

With a name like SMUCKERS it HAS to be GOOD!!

LC

Are you saying the incident created a traffic jam?

Now if we could just get a truck loaded with peanut butter and another with bread..........[:D]

[Anonymous]

AS I WACTH THE TAPE FROM THE THE TRUCK SHOULD HAVE GONE THRU THE RED LIGHT IM SURE HE HEARD THE HORN AND THERE ARE GATES ON BOTH SIDES OF THE CROSSING SHE SHOULD HAVE SEEN THERE WAS A PROBLEM .THE TRAIN WAS MOVING AT 65 MPH WHEN IT HIT THE TRUCK. TRACK SPEED IS 79 MPH. ONCE AGAIN I FEEL BAD FOR THE ENGINER AND AMTRAK HE DIDNT NEED THIS INTO HIS LIFE AND AMTRAK DOESNT NEED THE BAD PRESS

[richardy]

Take a close look at the video from the camera across the street. If the truck had run the red light there would very likely have been two to four vehicles collide with the truck. The resulting injuries would have been very grave. I speak from personal experience as I survived an accident last July with a truck where the driver passed out, came across the line and destroyed my vehicle along with another following me.

While I totally agree the driver in the train collision did some very stupid things she probably saved some lives by stopping at the red light and preventing an insection collision. There was extensive propery damage but property can be replaced, lives cannot!

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy

Take a close look at the video from the camera across the street. If the truck had run the red light there would very likely have been two to four vehicles collide with the truck. The resulting injuries would have been very grave. I speak from personal experience as I survived an accident last July with a truck where the driver passed out, came across the line and destroyed my vehicle along with another following me.

While I totally agree the driver in the train collision did some very stupid things she probably saved some lives by stopping at the red light and preventing an insection collision. There was extensive propery damage but property can be replaced, lives cannot!

In this instance, you would be correct. However, what is to say that a piece of the truck could not have lodged under the front wheels, lifting the locomotive's front axle off the rails and causing a bad derailment, right in the middle of all that traffic. How many might be dead then?

If the truck had pulled ahead into traffic, it MAY have caused an accident or accidents (although if the other drivers were paying attention, they just might have seen the truck enter traffic and perhaps slowed enough to avoid hitting); but by staying on the tracks, the truck DEFINITELY caused a large, potentially multiple-fatality incident.

Sorry, Richardy, there is no way that driver made any sort of correct decision during the chain of events that led to this crash.

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy

Take a close look at the video from the camera across the street. If the truck had run the red light there would very likely have been two to four vehicles collide with the truck. The resulting injuries would have been very grave. I speak from personal experience as I survived an accident last July with a truck where the driver passed out, came across the line and destroyed my vehicle along with another following me.

While I totally agree the driver in the train collision did some very stupid things she probably saved some lives by stopping at the red light and preventing an insection collision. There was extensive propery damage but property can be replaced, lives cannot!

In this instance, you would be correct. However, what is to say that a piece of the truck could not have lodged under the front wheels, lifting the locomotive's front axle off the rails and causing a bad derailment, right in the middle of all that traffic. How many might be dead then?

If the truck had pulled ahead into traffic, it MAY have caused an accident or accidents (although if the other drivers were paying attention, they just might have seen the truck enter traffic and perhaps slowed enough to avoid hitting); but by staying on the tracks, the truck DEFINITELY caused a large, potentially multiple-fatality incident.

Sorry, Richardy, there is no way that driver made any sort of correct decision during the chain of events that led to this crash.

Zardoz:

I never said the driver did anything correctly, I just pointed out that IN THIS ONE CASE I feel (my opinion) that the driver saved lives or very serious injury in the intersection. I never said the train collision could not have been more horrific!! I never said the driver made a correct decision by stopping at the red light. Don't put words into my mouth that I did not say! I just voiced my opinion on THIS ACCIDENT and one thing can be said for sure that you Zardoz have never been nearly killed in a truly horrific accident with a truck!!! It will give you a much different perspective when viewing any accident, you look and think outside the box.

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy

Take a close look at the video from the camera across the street. If the truck had run the red light there would very likely have been two to four vehicles collide with the truck. The resulting injuries would have been very grave. I speak from personal experience as I survived an accident last July with a truck where the driver passed out, came across the line and destroyed my vehicle along with another following me.

While I totally agree the driver in the train collision did some very stupid things she probably saved some lives by stopping at the red light and preventing an insection collision. There was extensive propery damage but property can be replaced, lives cannot!

In this instance, you would be correct. However, what is to say that a piece of the truck could not have lodged under the front wheels, lifting the locomotive's front axle off the rails and causing a bad derailment, right in the middle of all that traffic. How many might be dead then?

If the truck had pulled ahead into traffic, it MAY have caused an accident or accidents (although if the other drivers were paying attention, they just might have seen the truck enter traffic and perhaps slowed enough to avoid hitting); but by staying on the tracks, the truck DEFINITELY caused a large, potentially multiple-fatality incident.

Sorry, Richardy, there is no way that driver made any sort of correct decision during the chain of events that led to this crash.

Zardoz:

I never said the driver did anything correctly, I just pointed out that IN THIS ONE CASE I feel (my opinion) that the driver saved lives or very serious injury in the intersection. I never said the train collision could not have been more horrific!! I never said the driver made a correct decision by stopping at the red light. Don't put words into my mouth that I did not say! I just voiced my opinion on THIS ACCIDENT and one thing can be said for sure that you Zardoz have never been nearly killed in a truly horrific accident with a truck!!! It will give you a much different perspective when viewing any accident, you look and think outside the box.

Well, if you discount the time I put my suburban train in emergency and stopped just 80 feet short of hitting a gasoline truck; and if you discount the time I hit a city of Crystal lake snow plow that was hung up on a crossing; or if you discount the time a truck was trying to beat my train to a crossing then realized he was not going to make it and then tried to stop and his trailer jacknifed and hit a car that was in the lane next to him that almost caused that car to be pushed into my train along with his trailer, then no, I have had no such experience.

However, I have gone through clear signals and around the next curve been greeted by the rear of a train (stopped in time), or the time in dark territory I came around a curve and was greeted by a switch that lead into an industry that was lined against me (stopped well inside the siding limits as the train headed towards the building). And I have been coming down a 1% grade with 15,000 tons when the brakes did not respond when set, and by the time i could take any action, the train was already 15mph over the speed limit with a 25tmph curve at the bottom of the hill and was so close to being a wreck that the conductor was ready to jump before we got to the curve. Do any of these qualify as close enough to death for you?

And having to deal with nine fatalities over the course of twenty years of being an engineer has given me a certain perspective that, while it may not be "outside the box" sufficiently for you, it is certainly thinking "inside the cab", which I believe counts for more.

[richardy]

Zardoz:

I did not know you were a former engineer so I can see that you look at the situation from that perspective. You have had many close calls in your life and so have I but mine in July resulted in severe injury and I did not see that on your list.

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy

Zardoz:

I did not know you were a former engineer so I can see that you look at the situation from that perspective. You have had many close calls in your life and so have I but mine in July resulted in severe injury and I did not see that on your list.

Richardy-
You are correct; I have not suffered any injuries as the result of incidents of which we speak. Certainly, being severely injured will change one's perspective; how much so I cannot begin to imagin. My apologies for my sharp retort.

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

Richardy-
You are correct; I have not suffered any injuries as the result of incidents of which we speak. Certainly, being severely injured will change one's perspective; how much so I cannot begin to imagin. My apologies for my sharp retort.