Article talks about a revived proposal to reroute NS lakefront line. The East Palistine derailment/environmental disaster seems to be a factor in it's revival. Interested to hear what our Cleveland readers have to add.
https://neo-trans.blog/2024/07/06/clevelands-lakefront-has-something-no-other-major-great-lakes-city-has/
First, let me say the author, Ken Prendergast, is well-known in Northern Ohio as a fellow who knows what he's talking about and is a friend of passenger rail as well as freight.
Second, his plan makes sense and wouldn't be too hard to make a reality. After all, the roadbed, even the rails, are there waiting to be reused.
But, to put this into context: Cleveland is already one of the poorest cities in the country, although the metropolitan area is economically healthy. The Cleveland Browns want a brand-new, state-of-the-art, stadium. The owners of the Browns have presented their plan to redesign the large area around the current stadium, including a wide, park-like cover or bridge over the railroad tracks to reach this new development as well as a new stadium somewhere else. Now along comes this proposed plan to rebuild NS's right of ways and relocate their mainline tracks, along with perhaps a new viaduct and bridge over the Cuyahoga River.
All of this will cost billions, with a big B. And guess what? Cleveland's citizens will be asked to pay for, or at least help pay for, most, if not all of this. Cleveland's corporate leaders have no qualms about Socialism when it comes to these kinds of subsidies and infrastructure improvements. The big-business types will be there with outstretched hands when the city and state start "helping" to make these visions reality. Funny, if the Cleveland Orchestra wanted a new home, "or we'll leave," they'd be laughed out of town. Or if a mayor had a plan to rebuild the city's streets or sewers or the like, he would never get the money necessary.
I'm in favor of Prendergast's plan and a new Browns stadium (used about 9 or 11 afternoons in a year), but it galls me to know that once again, taxpayers, not private enterprise, will wind up with a huge portion of the bill. But hey, that's capitalism, right?
The railroads and the activity along the Lakefront and the Cuyahoga River are what made Cleveland a economic powerhouse in the 20th Century. With the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs and the off shoreing of primary industies - has left Cleveland struggling for its existence.
Spent many a night 'ramroding' crews working the B&O Interchange with the NYC at Whiskey Island. Interchange consisted of three tracks and held 105 cars - when all three tracks were full the B&O yard job had to get permission from the Operator at 'The Bridge' to occupy the NYC Eastward Main track and the operate East to the West side of the Bridge and use the crossover back to B&O rails. Permission could only be granted IF there were no trains East of Berea, as Berea was the last controlled signal, and for Permission to be granted the Berea signal had to be at Stop - with the traffic the NYC was operating at the time - it could take hours for the yard crew to get the permission.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Have the various 'players' form an entity, and subsidize the purchase of a Chinese TLM. Then set up arrangements, ideally with local businesses, to supply the necessary components to do the repairs to subgrade and then re-lay optimized new track.
Then you'll have a costed-down resource that could be leased for similar regrading or relocation projects "elsewhere in the region" (or indeed elsewhere in North America) without the ridiculous rental charges some for-profit construction company would demand for the specialized equipment and operation procedures. You'd make the money back in consulting fees alone for CAHSR... and actually do something they probably won't: actually get around to laying track suitable for high-speed service.
Get a couple of R-cranes and the equipment for self-launching viaduct pier placement and deck construction, while you're asking for money. Makes child's play out of all the civil construction enabling that TLM to lay class 9 compliant track structure where desired...
Just how many bucks are we talking about?
First approximation: pick your 'alternate route' from the map
and then calculate the number of track-miles requiring 'rebuilding' to the desired traffic density. Be prepared for all sorts of NIMBY and do-gooder suits and actions to keep things the way they are -- probably lots more people voters in the 'alternate route' Blast Zone than there are directly affected in the lakefront area.
I had thought this was all about Hudson Yards-style decking over with new Chicago Lakefront style construction -- but it isn't.
Is there clearly a cluster of people clamoring and to get to the Cleveland waterfront?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Is there clearly a cluster of people clamoring and to get to the Cleveland waterfront?
I'm betting on developers who see $$ from lake view condos.
The railroad actually consumes very little "lakefront" property. The airport, parks, the Cleveland Browns stadium and the Whiskey Island complex take up most of it.
Here's the area: 41.50184 -81.70480
Next they'll go after the shipping... Can't have those dirty boats messing up our view, after all...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I was down there once years ago. I don't see it.
NKP guy I'm in favor of Prendergast's plan and a new Browns stadium (used about 9 or 11 afternoons in a year), but it galls me to know that once again, taxpayers, not private enterprise, will wind up with a huge portion of the bill. But hey, that's capitalism, right?
Not wanting to get too far in the weeds about stadiums, but that is surprising to hear. Here in Jacksonville, the stadium that the Jags play in is used all year for different things, concerts, monster truck shows and such which add revenue to the city. I can't believe Cleveland doesn't do something similar to make use of a site besides Brown's home games.
An "expensive model collector"
The clammoring for new and improved access to the lakefront has been growing for decades. The idea is that the freeway and railroad tracks now there present a psychological barrier to pedestrian traffic; if they can be covered over with a wide ramp with grass and a few trees, the argument goes, then people will come as never before to enjoy their lakefront, as they do in Chicago.
Cleveland has a real asset in being on the Great Lakes, and this is an idea to try to make the most of the site by increasing dramatically public access to the water and its attractions.
As for Browns' stadium: In the first 17 years after it opened it was used just 33 times for non-NFL events. This doesn't seem to have changed very much since 2017. Jacksonville has the right idea.
tree68 zugmann Is there clearly a cluster of people clamoring and to get to the Cleveland waterfront? I'm betting on developers who see $$ from lake view condos. The railroad actually consumes very little "lakefront" property. The airport, parks, the Cleveland Browns stadium and the Whiskey Island complex take up most of it. Here's the area: 41.50184 -81.70480 Next they'll go after the shipping... Can't have those dirty boats messing up our view, after all...
When I was working Cleveland going from the Clark Ave. Yard office to Whisky Island could take 10 minutes or over an hour. The route contained three drawbridges - if you caught it wrong you could end up waiting at every drawbridge for the same vessel transiting the Cuyahoga River. Vessels that entered the river bow first would exit the river stern first - there were no turning locations and only one location where vessels could pass each other.
NKP guyif they can be covered over with a wide ramp with grass and a few trees, the argument goes, then people will come as never before to enjoy their lakefront, as they do in Chicago.
Sounds like those twitter/youtube "urban planners". Every 20-year old kid that takes a 100-level course in planning thinks they're an expert.
Isn't CLeveland whre they have the light rail with the bridge that's OOS?
From what I've heard and seen on Youtube, the freighters are a draw for the restaurants on the riverfront. They always blow salutes.
Backshop From what I've heard and seen on Youtube, the freighters are a draw for the restaurants on the riverfront. They always blow salutes.
Indeed. My other screen is always looking at Port Huron and the river there at.
"But those rusty old boats are just so ugly..."
BackshopFrom what I've heard and seen on Youtube, the freighters are a draw for the restaurants on the riverfront. They always blow salutes.
Forget the name of the place, but there was a CLASS restaurant at 'Collision Bend' the only location where two boats could pass each other, or on boat could execute a energency turning maneuver.
I'm sure you're thinking of Jim's Steakhouse, a real Cleveland landmark and destination restaurant--until the 1980's, when it was torn down.
It really was a classy joint, with table cloths and everything--right in the heart of the industrial Flats. The FD's fire boats were moored up next door and the firemen were always happy to let young people tour their boats after having had dinner!
And tree, Clevelanders are pretty proud of their maritime heritage. I never heard anyone complain about these vessels and their rust. We love seeing these gigantic "boats" go by us slowly and solemnly. In the 1990's the Watermark picked up where Jim's left off and let diners sit outside and watch the show just feet away on the Cuyahoga.
Near the mouth of the river, almost on top of the NYC/PC/CR/NS lift bridge, was Kindler's Cafe, which catered to railroaders, sailors, truckers, factory workers, and the like with heavy, plain food (think meatloaf & potato salad, etc), including, always, walleye, perch, or blue pike. When I and my high school or college buddies would walk into Kindler's about midnight, the room's conversation stopped briefly because we looked so out of place; five seconds later, it all resumed.
To say the least, I really miss the Cleveland of my youth, a fascinating place for people who enjoyed railroads and ships.
https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/2020/05/jims-steak-house-remembering-clevelands-famed-restaurants-best-worst-days.html
Lastly, I believe there was/is a turning basin way up the river at the Republic Steel mills, but no sightseeing boats went that far.
NKP guyAnd tree, Clevelanders are pretty proud of their maritime heritage.
They aren't the folks I'd worry about. It's the newcomers who want pristine scenery and couldn't tell the difference between a lake boat and a gravy boat...
There is usually a "river-class" boat shuttling ore from the lakefront bulk terminal up the Cuyahoga to the blast furnaces.
This should rekindle some memories:
The New York Central swing bridge is still in place at the mouth of the Cuyahoga. That bridge must have been a real bottleneck. It was a gantlet track so effectively, the whole NYC main was down to one track here. The 'new' (present day) double track lift bridge is nearing completion here in 1956.
Here's another view looking from the north side:
NYC_1956-swing-bridge by Edmund, on Flickr
At 3:26 you catch a very quick glimpse of an NYC Aerotrain car sitting at the Cleveland Union Terminal coach yard car shop. Perhaps the car had wheel problems and was removed from the train? There was a wheel lathe at the small coach repair shed at C.U.T.
Regards, Ed
Swing bridges are hazards to navigation by definition. On the Calumet River, one was removed after being hit by a foreign freighter and the other two (NKP and EJ&E) were replaced by vertical lift bridges.
What planners think people want and what people actually want sometimes are not one and the same.
gmpullmanAt 3:26 you catch a very quick glimpse of an NYC Aerotrain car sitting at the Cleveland Union Terminal coach yard car shop. Perhaps the car had wheel problems and was removed from the train? There was a wheel lathe at the small coach repair shed at C.U.T.
This might be that car, and if the suspension is clearly visible it might tell us about the nature of GM's "improvement" or whether it was likely to work as promoted...
At 5:29 there are a couple of views of the B&O's Bridge 460 and the tower that the Train Order/Bridge Operator used. I worked Bridge 460 for a week or so in the summer of 1968.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.