For cars like gondolas that could be overloaded if filled to the top (with something like rock/stone), how do they know when the car is to the maximum weight without exceeding that weight? Semi have scales buitl in but I've never seen that on railcars.
Perry BabinFor cars like gondolas that could be overloaded if filled to the top (with something like rock/stone), how do they know when the car is to the maximum weight without exceeding that weight? Semi have scales buitl in but I've never seen that on railcars.
Shippers know the weights of the commodities that they are shipping. They know how much each of their 8 inch thick, 8 foot wide, 20 foot long steel slabs weigh and thus how many of them it will take to max the capacity of the car. That same principle applies to all commodities.
When I was working in Baltimore, the B&O was moving 'Ground Storage Iron Ore' being shipped in open top hopper that previously had hauled coal and had been inspected by the Car Dept. as being suitable for Iron Ore loading. Cars were being loaded by front end bucket loaders, the buckets had a known cubic capacity and the iron ore had a known cubic weight. The operators of the bucket loaders were instructed to put 'X' number of bucket loads over the trucks of each car. After the cars at a particular loading pad were pulled and replaced with fresh empty cars, the loads would be weighed on a track scale at the loading yard. Yes, the bucket loaders sometimes lost count and overloaded some cars, these would be set out to be adjusted by the loading contractor.
Commodities such as scrap metal will be weighed near the origin and adjusted if necessary. Remember, weight of lading, is the primary means of assessing freight charges for whomever is paying the freight bill for a car - it is also an attestation of the amount of product shipped and received for the Shipper and Consignee.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Perry Babin Semi have scales buitl in but I've never seen that on railcars.
Backshop Perry Babin Semi have scales buitl in but I've never seen that on railcars. Very, very, very, very few. I doubt if one in 100 does.
Very, very, very, very few. I doubt if one in 100 does.
Yes, very few. And many shippers (especially the smaller ones) don't really know what their product weighs either. We always add 2.5% to what the shipper tells us.. and sometimes even that's not sufficient.
Yes. Rarely. It's just those that carry loads that can vary greatly like semis that carry timber. They load until they reach the target weight.
The B&O weighed coal cars going over the hump at Connellsville, Pa. Any that were overloaded were spotted on a track next to the boiler house where the excess coal was removed and used to fuel the boiler.
In recent history, there has been a small surge in using load cell type in-motion scales. (no scale pit, just a series of load cells on a concrete slab) ... the technology continues to evolve. From what goes on around me, it's largely the mines and the major shippers buying these things as opposed to just the railroads. The penalties for overloaded cars can no longer be dismissed by the corporate spreadsheet watchers.
For products that vary in weight (like coal that gets wet along the path), how do they handle cars that were loaded to capacity when dry and now may be over that weight?
here have been many cases where trailers and containers have high density loads all in front. Had friend that had several of his drive tires blow only driving 10 miles due to overloaded trailer in front. What about rail cars that might have same happen with most weight on one truck.
Perry BabinFor products that vary in weight (like coal that gets wet along the path), how do they handle cars that were loaded to capacity when dry and now may be over that weight?
For the most part - coal is not loaded dry. Most coal goes through 'prep plants' at the mine and it is loaded in a damp condition to facilitate it movement through the machienry used as well as to keep down 'coal dust' and its potential for explosion.
Open top rail cars, while secure for the commodities they haul are not water tight and water will drain out of the cars over time.
Dust in any form can be explosive. CSX coal terminal in Baltimore had an explosion at its transloading facility from rail cars to ships. Over the years many grain elevators have exploded from the grain dust generated by its handling. Even sugar plants have exploded from the dust created in their manufacturing processes.
blue streak 1 here have been many cases where trailers and containers have high density loads all in front. Had friend that had several of his drive tires blow only driving 10 miles due to overloaded trailer in front. What about rail cars that might have same happen with most weight on one truck.
CSSHEGEWISCH blue streak 1 here have been many cases where trailers and containers have high density loads all in front. Had friend that had several of his drive tires blow only driving 10 miles due to overloaded trailer in front. What about rail cars that might have same happen with most weight on one truck. Blowouts are obviously not going to be an issue. There may be handling problems while braking due to the load variations.
What would be affected by overloading would be the wheel bearings, not the wheels. Cars with heavier load limits have larger axle sizes and bearing areas than do cars with lower load limits.
BaltACDWhat would be affected by overloading would be the wheel bearings, not the wheels. Cars with heavier load limits have larger axle sizes and bearing areas than do cars with lower load limits.
If the end with the load/empty sensor is overloaded, wouldn't it have the chance to slide the wheels on the less loaded side under heavy braking?
zug - who doesn't have a mechanical hat on.
I have shopped a car or 2 for imbalanced load, and picked up a few more the detectors nabbed. They get put on the RIP tracks for the customer to deal with (usually via contractor).
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann BaltACD What would be affected by overloading would be the wheel bearings, not the wheels. Cars with heavier load limits have larger axle sizes and bearing areas than do cars with lower load limits. If the end with the load/empty sensor is overloaded, wouldn't it have the chance to slide the wheels on the less loaded side under heavy braking? zug - who doesn't have a mechanical hat on. I have shopped a car or 2 for imbalanced load, and picked up a few more the detectors nabbed. They get put on the RIP tracks for the customer to deal with (usually via contractor).
BaltACD What would be affected by overloading would be the wheel bearings, not the wheels. Cars with heavier load limits have larger axle sizes and bearing areas than do cars with lower load limits.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy SidingWould that involve a contractor who has a bunch of guys with shovels?
If it's a lumber car - sometimes a van full of mennonites?
But for heavy things like coil or paper roll cars, there's special companies with cranes that come out. Pretty nifty operations.
How imbalanced can a load be before it causes issues? I saw a lumber car I thought was loaded funky. Instead of the car being loaded with 4 layers of lumber units filling the entire length, this car had about 3-1/2 rows. The lumber guy in me figured the top row had about 5,000# at the lef front, 18,000# at the right rear. My first thought was that I hoped the cre unloading paid attention.
zugmann Murphy Siding Would that involve a contractor who has a bunch of guys with shovels? If it's a lumber car - sometimes a van full of mennonites? But for heavy things like coil or paper roll cars, there's special companies with cranes that come out. Pretty nifty operations.
Murphy Siding Would that involve a contractor who has a bunch of guys with shovels?
It seems like someone shipping big items like paper or coils would have a lot of experience to fall back on when loading. Paying a specialty contractor to come in and fix things probably eats all the profit on that order.
Murphy Siding zugmann Murphy Siding Would that involve a contractor who has a bunch of guys with shovels? If it's a lumber car - sometimes a van full of mennonites? But for heavy things like coil or paper roll cars, there's special companies with cranes that come out. Pretty nifty operations. I worked at a lumberyard next to two truck stops on a busy interstate. We did a lot business moving loads that had shifted on semis. We occasionally got to buy a unit of lumber off trucks that were overloaded. The lumber mills apparently did't have scales but the highway patrol did. It seems like someone shipping big items like paper or coils would have a lot of experience to fall back on when loading. Paying a specialty contractor to come in and fix things probably eats all the profit on that order.
I worked at a lumberyard next to two truck stops on a busy interstate. We did a lot business moving loads that had shifted on semis. We occasionally got to buy a unit of lumber off trucks that were overloaded. The lumber mills apparently did't have scales but the highway patrol did.
Some people play the numbers game..for every unit that is caught overweight 50 get through, which might work out to a free load above and beyond if things were done above board.
Ulrich Murphy Siding zugmann Murphy Siding Would that involve a contractor who has a bunch of guys with shovels? If it's a lumber car - sometimes a van full of mennonites? But for heavy things like coil or paper roll cars, there's special companies with cranes that come out. Pretty nifty operations. I worked at a lumberyard next to two truck stops on a busy interstate. We did a lot business moving loads that had shifted on semis. We occasionally got to buy a unit of lumber off trucks that were overloaded. The lumber mills apparently did't have scales but the highway patrol did. It seems like someone shipping big items like paper or coils would have a lot of experience to fall back on when loading. Paying a specialty contractor to come in and fix things probably eats all the profit on that order. Some people play the numbers game..for every unit that is caught overweight 50 get through, which might work out to a free load above and beyond if things were done above board.
Railroad intermodal has always been a way to move overloaded trailer/containers. Railroad intermodal is rated per box, not per pound. Various shippers have been using this to their advantage for decades.
Worked around the B&O trailer ramp in Baltimore in the 1970's which used circus loading. The 'yard' trucks had hydraulic 5th wheels so they could pick up trailers for loading/unloading on rail cars. It was not that unusual for a yard truck to come up against trailers that their hydraulics couldn't master without additional help.
BaltACDDust in any form can be explosive.
Interesting party trick - I don't recommend that just anyone try it - put some flour in the palm of your hand, light a candle, and blow the flour over the flame.
Probably should do it outside...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Walt, two stories. Yours was humerous (hydraulic 5th wheel).
1. A local industry manufactured ramp lifts that would accomodate the total tractor and trailer of a load of an eighteen wheeler (loads could be gravity unloaded). Of course this is a huge piece of equipment (made, in lengthwise, halves). As was the company welders habit (WW2 SeaBee) he welded the one "half" onto a flat car used to carry two 53 ft trailers. Successful until one day a RR inspector came by and said, "You can't do that." The welder was made to boomer down the load. He knew it would come loose. He did so anyway. Of course I don't don't know how far down the line it got before coming loose. Guess whose problem it was Then?
2. Another plant here makes electric motors. They have steel parts stamped out of sheets and left over residue is conveyed out to a gondola car. Workers noticed the gondola car bed was sitting on the wheels of the trucks. They called a RR inspector. He advised they had overloaded. Unload. Company hired a backhoe and they "started"unloading. Inspector went to lunch. Plant supervisor told the backhoe, "Hurry, unload the whole thing". They did. Inspecctor comes back and looks at the springs, "Still overloaded, take out more". At this point the supervisor asked the inspector to take a look inside HIS gondola car. I wasn't there but wonder how red faced he was? endmrw0610231800
BaltACD Ulrich Murphy Siding zugmann Murphy Siding Would that involve a contractor who has a bunch of guys with shovels? If it's a lumber car - sometimes a van full of mennonites? But for heavy things like coil or paper roll cars, there's special companies with cranes that come out. Pretty nifty operations. I worked at a lumberyard next to two truck stops on a busy interstate. We did a lot business moving loads that had shifted on semis. We occasionally got to buy a unit of lumber off trucks that were overloaded. The lumber mills apparently did't have scales but the highway patrol did. It seems like someone shipping big items like paper or coils would have a lot of experience to fall back on when loading. Paying a specialty contractor to come in and fix things probably eats all the profit on that order. Some people play the numbers game..for every unit that is caught overweight 50 get through, which might work out to a free load above and beyond if things were done above board. Railroad intermodal has always been a way to move overloaded trailer/containers. Railroad intermodal is rated per box, not per pound. Various shippers have been using this to their advantage for decades. Worked around the B&O trailer ramp in Baltimore in the 1970's which used circus loading. The 'yard' trucks had hydraulic 5th wheels so they could pick up trailers for loading/unloading on rail cars. It was not that unusual for a yard truck to come up against trailers that their hydraulics couldn't master without additional help.
Yes, and the fun starts on the final miles from rail or port to the customer...when they take that 60k container and drop it on a tandem chassis..
Ulrich BaltACD Ulrich Murphy Siding zugmann Murphy Siding Would that involve a contractor who has a bunch of guys with shovels? If it's a lumber car - sometimes a van full of mennonites? But for heavy things like coil or paper roll cars, there's special companies with cranes that come out. Pretty nifty operations. I worked at a lumberyard next to two truck stops on a busy interstate. We did a lot business moving loads that had shifted on semis. We occasionally got to buy a unit of lumber off trucks that were overloaded. The lumber mills apparently did't have scales but the highway patrol did. It seems like someone shipping big items like paper or coils would have a lot of experience to fall back on when loading. Paying a specialty contractor to come in and fix things probably eats all the profit on that order. Some people play the numbers game..for every unit that is caught overweight 50 get through, which might work out to a free load above and beyond if things were done above board. Railroad intermodal has always been a way to move overloaded trailer/containers. Railroad intermodal is rated per box, not per pound. Various shippers have been using this to their advantage for decades. Worked around the B&O trailer ramp in Baltimore in the 1970's which used circus loading. The 'yard' trucks had hydraulic 5th wheels so they could pick up trailers for loading/unloading on rail cars. It was not that unusual for a yard truck to come up against trailers that their hydraulics couldn't master without additional help. Yes, and the fun starts on the final miles from rail or port to the customer...when they take that 60k container and drop it on a tandem chassis..
Just hope the Weight Patrol isn't monitoring the area. Actually, I am surprised the authorities don't make it normal practice to patrol such areas on a routine basis. I am also surprised that when passing Interstate Weight Stations they seem to be more frequently closed than open.
BaltACDI am also surprised that when passing Interstate Weight Stations they seem to be more frequently closed than open.
There aren't many weigh stations, as such, in this area any more. A roving band of "commercial enforcement" state troopers set up in several pre-designated rest areas ("All trucks must stop if lights are flashing"). As you note, they're not there more than they are.
Interstate 81 is a major conduit for traffic from Canada. One will often see as many Canadian trucks as US based.
tree68 BaltACD I am also surprised that when passing Interstate Weight Stations they seem to be more frequently closed than open. There aren't many weigh stations, as such, in this area any more. A roving band of "commercial enforcement" state troopers set up in several pre-designated rest areas ("All trucks must stop if lights are flashing"). As you note, they're not there more than they are. Interstate 81 is a major conduit for traffic from Canada. One will often see as many Canadian trucks as US based.
BaltACD I am also surprised that when passing Interstate Weight Stations they seem to be more frequently closed than open.
Configured a trip from Jacksonville to Maryland one time to use I-81 since I was going to race at Summit Point Raceway in Summit Point, WV. I-81 is THE truck route from the SE to NE - it is only 2 lanes in each direction and truck #2 is passing truck #1 with a speed difference of 0.1 MPH or less
BaltACD tree68 BaltACD I am also surprised that when passing Interstate Weight Stations they seem to be more frequently closed than open. There aren't many weigh stations, as such, in this area any more. A roving band of "commercial enforcement" state troopers set up in several pre-designated rest areas ("All trucks must stop if lights are flashing"). As you note, they're not there more than they are. Interstate 81 is a major conduit for traffic from Canada. One will often see as many Canadian trucks as US based. Configured a trip from Jacksonville to Maryland one time to use I-81 since I was going to race at Summit Point Raceway in Summit Point, WV. I-81 is THE truck route from the SE to NE - it is only 2 lanes in each direction and truck #2 is passing truck #1 with a speed difference of 0.1 MPH or less
BaltACDConfigured a trip from Jacksonville to Maryland one time to use I-81 since I was going to race at Summit Point Raceway in Summit Point, WV. I-81 is THE truck route from the SE to NE - it is only 2 lanes in each direction and truck #2 is passing truck #1 with a speed difference of 0.1 MPH or less
With several miles of traffic backed up behind them... Been there, and it's even worse in the mountains where the trucks are also struggling to make it up grades...
My late uncle once saw what appeared to be a battle between two trucks. It wasn't so much that one was passing the other at a 0.1 MPH rate as it was they weren't going to allow each other to pass at all...
To bring this back to railroads, there has been discussion in the past of an I-81 equivalent rail route. The biggest problem is that there is no single railroad route along that lane.
Many years ago, there was a diamond at Syracuse that probably could have figured into a straight-thru route, and even today it would be possible to run a train from Watertown to Scranton, although that would involve CSX, Susquehanna, and CP - alphabet route, anyone?
That was actually one of the things that broke the deal to sell the CSX St Lawrence Sub to B&LE. CSX was not willing to allow CN and the Suzie-Q direct interchange.
BaltACD Configured a trip from Jacksonville to Maryland one time to use I-81 since I was going to race at Summit Point Raceway in Summit Point, WV. I-81 is THE truck route from the SE to NE - it is only 2 lanes in each direction and truck #2 is passing truck #1 with a speed difference of 0.1 MPH or less
That's why you'll find me on US-20 across Iowa or US-36 across Missouri (both 65mph limited access but with maybe 20 percent of the traffic of the parallel Interstates). Lots of highways with the 'US' designation seem underutilized, and I'll gladly add 10-20% to my drive time to make it relaxing.
I-80 gets even worse as it passes the south edge of the Chicago area, probably with traffic from I-294 (Tri-State Tollway). I have found that paying the tolls on I-88 between Chicago and Quad Cities is a small price for much lighter traffic.
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