Convicted One Lithonia Operator Three of us have asked honest questions about this because we wanted to know more about it. That's all. A while back, I asked one of the railroaders what they would do to recover if they broke a knuckle while passing over a structure like the Tulip Trestle. And the response was to shove the parted section back off the bridge. The very idea seemed mind boggling to me. But evidently pushing a locked up train isn't as rare as it might seem to us outsiders.
Lithonia Operator Three of us have asked honest questions about this because we wanted to know more about it. That's all.
A while back, I asked one of the railroaders what they would do to recover if they broke a knuckle while passing over a structure like the Tulip Trestle. And the response was to shove the parted section back off the bridge.
The very idea seemed mind boggling to me. But evidently pushing a locked up train isn't as rare as it might seem to us outsiders.
That makes sense to shove off the bridge after a broken knuckle. I imagine that's a safety issue trying to change a knuckle out over a structure.
SD60MAC9500I imagine that's a safety issue trying to change a knuckle out over a structure.
SD70Dude BaltACD SD70Dude jeffhergert * What is the PTC Park function you ask? When it's engaged, if it detects movement it will dump the air. We have a version of that called "roll-away protection" in Canada, though our feature is not part of PTC. American units must not have it, or that UP unit wouldn't have been able to run away earlier this year in Saskatchewan (it was a DP remote, and the crew forgot to set it out when the left it by itself and went to do some switching, so now we aren't allowed to "save the air" anymore). The CROR requires that we do a push/pull test whenever equipment is left on a grade, which is practically everywhere. Saving the air has been a no no in the US for decades. "Bottling the air" has been a no no for as long as anyone can remember. "Saving the air" uses the DP remote's automatic brake valve to maintain the brake application on the train, just like any other lead locomotive. The DP remote will automatically put the train into emergency if it starts moving or detects signs of an unintentional release.
BaltACD SD70Dude jeffhergert * What is the PTC Park function you ask? When it's engaged, if it detects movement it will dump the air. We have a version of that called "roll-away protection" in Canada, though our feature is not part of PTC. American units must not have it, or that UP unit wouldn't have been able to run away earlier this year in Saskatchewan (it was a DP remote, and the crew forgot to set it out when the left it by itself and went to do some switching, so now we aren't allowed to "save the air" anymore). The CROR requires that we do a push/pull test whenever equipment is left on a grade, which is practically everywhere. Saving the air has been a no no in the US for decades.
SD70Dude jeffhergert * What is the PTC Park function you ask? When it's engaged, if it detects movement it will dump the air. We have a version of that called "roll-away protection" in Canada, though our feature is not part of PTC. American units must not have it, or that UP unit wouldn't have been able to run away earlier this year in Saskatchewan (it was a DP remote, and the crew forgot to set it out when the left it by itself and went to do some switching, so now we aren't allowed to "save the air" anymore). The CROR requires that we do a push/pull test whenever equipment is left on a grade, which is practically everywhere.
jeffhergert * What is the PTC Park function you ask? When it's engaged, if it detects movement it will dump the air.
* What is the PTC Park function you ask? When it's engaged, if it detects movement it will dump the air.
We have a version of that called "roll-away protection" in Canada, though our feature is not part of PTC. American units must not have it, or that UP unit wouldn't have been able to run away earlier this year in Saskatchewan (it was a DP remote, and the crew forgot to set it out when the left it by itself and went to do some switching, so now we aren't allowed to "save the air" anymore).
The CROR requires that we do a push/pull test whenever equipment is left on a grade, which is practically everywhere.
Saving the air has been a no no in the US for decades.
"Bottling the air" has been a no no for as long as anyone can remember.
"Saving the air" uses the DP remote's automatic brake valve to maintain the brake application on the train, just like any other lead locomotive. The DP remote will automatically put the train into emergency if it starts moving or detects signs of an unintentional release.
Our DP system is capable of having that. I've only had a few conductors who have wanted to use that. You have to secure the train, make a 20 lbs set and then place it into set out mode. If the engine is equipped (and not all UP engines may have it yet) the DP screen will show a number in the air flow indicator. If it isn't equipped, it will show "out."
If it is equipped, both angle cocks are to be closed. Bottling the air, even if they don't want to call it that. In set out mode, the DP is supposed to dump the air if it detects movement.
PTC Park works without the PTC system engaged. The principle is the same. If movement is detected, it dumps the air. When I leave a train unattended, I like using it. I leave a note for the next engineer to remind him/her to shut off the park. There is a banner on the screen that it's active, but not everyone uses it and a few are still unaware of it.
Jeff
jeffhergert Our DP system is capable of having that. I've only had a few conductors who have wanted to use that. You have to secure the train, make a 20 lbs set and then place it into set out mode. If the engine is equipped (and not all UP engines may have it yet) the DP screen will show a number in the air flow indicator. If it isn't equipped, it will show "out." If it is equipped, both angle cocks are to be closed. Bottling the air, even if they don't want to call it that. In set out mode, the DP is supposed to dump the air if it detects movement.
It worked the same here, but we were required to use it whenever possible, though not everyone did. Using it did not affect whether or not we were required to apply handbrakes.
We were told to only do it with CN units, it was prohibited if your remote was a foreign unit or one of the ex-BC Rail Dash-9's. I don't recall the ex-IC SD70s being on the prohibited list, but they are rarely seen out this way anymore (good riddance).
I believe the DP unit is supposed to dump the air if it detects movement over 1 mph, a rise in brake pipe pressure, a sharp increase in flow, or an emergency brake application on the lead unit. I was in the habit of turning the DP radio breaker off during shop track brake tests or while the Conductor was cutting in the air, to try and avoid an unintentional emergency application on the trailing portion of the train (the remote just thinks it's in comm loss while you do that).
jeffhergert PTC Park works without the PTC system engaged. The principle is the same. If movement is detected, it dumps the air. When I leave a train unattended, I like using it. I leave a note for the next engineer to remind him/her to shut off the park. There is a banner on the screen that it's active, but not everyone uses it and a few are still unaware of it. Jeff
That's definitely different from what we have, roll-away protection is either always enabled or it is automatic, no crew action is required. I think it works through the alerter/RSC system, but I'm not sure.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD60MAC9500That makes sense to shove off the bridge after a broken knuckle. I imagine that's a safety issue trying to change a knuckle out over a structure.
Pushing 30 cars that are locked up in emergency seems pretty hard to believe though. And, as far as pumping it up with air before shoving it. Aren't there rules that prohibit standing inside the guage so near an "unsecured" train? I mean I thought based upon what we hear here that even just slipping under or over a coupling was verboten, unless means to secure the train were employed. "Red Zone" protection I think it is called?
Convicted OnePushing 30 cars that are locked up in emergency seems pretty hard to believe though. And, as far as pumping it up with air before shoving it. Aren't there rules that prohibit standing inside the guage so near an "unsecured" train? I mean I thought based upon what we hear here that even just slipping under or over a coupling was verboten, unless means to secure the train were employed. "Red Zone" protection I think it is called?
Rules can be suspended. But to work on a bridge with no handrails - you're probably going to need some B&B guys with fall protection.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
jeffhergertPTC Park works without the PTC system engaged. The principle is the same. If movement is detected, it dumps the air.
About the one thing PTC shines at - dumping the air. It's good at that - even when it shouldn't be.
Convicted One SD60MAC9500 That makes sense to shove off the bridge after a broken knuckle. I imagine that's a safety issue trying to change a knuckle out over a structure. Pushing 30 cars that are locked up in emergency seems pretty hard to believe though. And, as far as pumping it up with air before shoving it. Aren't there rules that prohibit standing inside the guage so near an "unsecured" train? I mean I thought based upon what we hear here that even just slipping under or over a coupling was verboten, unless means to secure the train were employed. "Red Zone" protection I think it is called?
SD60MAC9500 That makes sense to shove off the bridge after a broken knuckle. I imagine that's a safety issue trying to change a knuckle out over a structure.
I'm not sure about rules as my railroading experience working around operating equipment was a very short tenure, and almost 15 years ago. Though from that bridge you mentioned after seeing a photo of it. I would do the exact same thing shove off even if part of the train is locked up. Rather risk equipment than a crew member.
SD70Dude And yet trains don't run away each and every day, despite regularly being left unattended outside of yards.
And yet trains don't run away each and every day, despite regularly being left unattended outside of yards.
Yes, the system works most of the time despite its defects. I suspect that most trainmen just know how to get the job of securement done effectively. Yet the point is they have no specific method or guidance on the process.
The company management just demands that its employees discharge the responsibility of producing successful securement; no matter how many brakes are set in addition to the minimum requirement, and no matter what the grade steepness is, how tightly the handbrakes are applied, and how poorly maintained the handbrakes are. If securement fails for any reason, it is the fault of the employees.
However, regardless of how successful this shoestring system is, the TSB has produced a special report alerting of an alarming increase in runaway accidents. They are urgently calling on all parties to provide solutions to the problem, including the use of chocks and portable derails.
zugmannRules can be suspended. But to work on a bridge with no handrails - you're probably going to need some B&B guys with fall protection.
I am completely ignorant, never worked on the railroad a day in my life. But the solution that looks most promising to me would be to have the conductor walk out to the broken knuckle and plug the airline. And arrange for another locomotive to hook up from the rear, pump up the air, and pull the stranded cars off the bridge "backwards".
Is the boss gonna be annoyed with the request for assistance?
Euclid SD70Dude And yet trains don't run away each and every day, despite regularly being left unattended outside of yards. Yes, the system works most of the time despite its defects. I suspect that most trainmen just know how to get the job of securement done effectively. Yet the point is they have no specific method or guidance on the process. The company management just demands that its employees discharge the responsibility of producing successful securement; no matter how many brakes are set in addition to the minimum requirement, and no matter what the grade steepness is, how tightly the handbrakes are applied, and how poorly maintained the handbrakes are. If securement fails for any reason, it is the fault of the employees. However, regardless of how successful this shoestring system is, the TSB has produced a special report alerting of an alarming increase in runaway accidents. They are urgently calling on all parties to provide solutions to the problem, including the use of chocks and portable derails.
Is anyone else's BSometer pegged? Because mine finally just blew up.
jeffhergertIs anyone else's BSometer pegged? Because mine finally just blew up. Jeff
My BS meter has blown all of its safety valves - for a long, long time.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
jeffhergert Is anyone else's BSometer pegged? Because mine finally just blew up. Jeff
At least the border's closed. He's your problem, not ours.
Convicted One zugmann Rules can be suspended. But to work on a bridge with no handrails - you're probably going to need some B&B guys with fall protection. I am completely ignorant, never worked on the railroad a day in my life. But the solution that looks most promising to me would be to have the conductor walk out to the broken knuckle and plug the airline. And arrange for another locomotive to hook up from the rear, pump up the air, and pull the stranded cars off the bridge "backwards". Is the boss gonna be annoyed with the request for assistance?
zugmann Rules can be suspended. But to work on a bridge with no handrails - you're probably going to need some B&B guys with fall protection.
As soon as a problem of a large magnitude occurs, and there are far less happenings that sometime rate as a large magnitude, they start marshalling the rescue forces. Sometimes with the cutbacks on the class ones those forces can be a lot farther out, in time and miles, than they used to be.
They might just have an engine, if available, attach to the back and have the conductor with that engine just turn the anglecock on the last car reachable off the bridge and drag the remainder off to where they can be reached. The conductor on the crippled train would probably have to do the same with the portion still attached. If the train broke on the bridge, both sections are likely still on the bridge. The only way to get to the separation without a walkway would be to crawl on hands and knees under the cars.
But, to heck with a broken knuckle. Lets make it really good, let's say a damaged pin finally let go and they got a wrong end draw bar.
jeffhergert... But, to heck with a broken knuckle. Lets make it really good, let's say a damaged pin finally let go and they got a wrong end draw bar. Jeff
Not on bridge with no walkway .... but
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o38pP4mexPo
Moved content
BaltACDNot on bridge with no walkway .... but
I've never seen a freight train moving that fast. I suspect that video was sped up.
Also, the way it was edited, to go to the clunky slo-mo for zeroing in on the break, makes it look, initially, like there were two breaks simultaneously. It took me a few viewings to realize it was just one.
The video is definitely sped up in some places, and slowed down in others.
I don't see a broken drawbar, or even a broken knuckle. In fact, the knuckles are closed and intact on both cars. But look at how the drawbar is hanging on the trailing car. It would seem to me that this was a high/low situation, where one drawbar lifts up and out of the other.
jeffhergertIs anyone else's BSometer pegged?
And the needle is bent - but I keep a couple of spares on hand...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
SD70DudeThe video is definitely sped up in some places, and slowed down in others. I don't see a broken drawbar, or even a broken knuckle. In fact, the knuckles are closed and intact on both cars. But look at how the drawbar is hanging on the trailing car. It would seem to me that this was a high/low situation, where one drawbar lifts up and out of the other.
The broken 'carrier iron' allowing the entire drawbar and coupler to drop below the preceeding coupler.
Just put it on your shoulder and raise to to its proper height and then apply a bungee cord to hold it in place [/sarcasm]
BaltACD SD70Dude The video is definitely sped up in some places, and slowed down in others. I don't see a broken drawbar, or even a broken knuckle. In fact, the knuckles are closed and intact on both cars. But look at how the drawbar is hanging on the trailing car. It would seem to me that this was a high/low situation, where one drawbar lifts up and out of the other. The broken 'carrier iron' allowing the entire drawbar and coupler to drop below the preceeding coupler. Just put it on your shoulder and raise to to its proper height and then apply a bungee cord to hold it in place [/sarcasm]
SD70Dude The video is definitely sped up in some places, and slowed down in others. I don't see a broken drawbar, or even a broken knuckle. In fact, the knuckles are closed and intact on both cars. But look at how the drawbar is hanging on the trailing car. It would seem to me that this was a high/low situation, where one drawbar lifts up and out of the other.
I used to switch a customer who always got cars with tightlock couplers, and their site had some pretty uneven track. The difference in height between drawbars on loaded and empty cars was often enough that they wouldn't couple together.
Our strategy was to lift up the low drawbar and stick an appropriately sized rock underneath it. Then the joint could be made.
Hey, if a person is strong enough to apply enough force to a handbrake wheel, certainly they could raise that drawbar with attached coupler to at least hold it in place with a roll of Duck Tape?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
SD70DudeI used to switch a customer who always got cars with tightlock couplers, and their site had some pretty uneven track. The difference in height between drawbars on loaded and empty cars was often enough that they wouldn't couple together. Our strategy was to lift up the low drawbar and stick an appropriately sized rock underneath it. Then the joint could be made.
Lithonia Operator SD70Dude I used to switch a customer who always got cars with tightlock couplers, and their site had some pretty uneven track. The difference in height between drawbars on loaded and empty cars was often enough that they wouldn't couple together. Our strategy was to lift up the low drawbar and stick an appropriately sized rock underneath it. Then the joint could be made. Are tightlock couplers shorter in vertical dimension than regular ones? Hence less "grab surface?"
SD70Dude I used to switch a customer who always got cars with tightlock couplers, and their site had some pretty uneven track. The difference in height between drawbars on loaded and empty cars was often enough that they wouldn't couple together. Our strategy was to lift up the low drawbar and stick an appropriately sized rock underneath it. Then the joint could be made.
The so called 'tight lock' couplers are the ones the have the 'ears' on the side without the knuckle pin. The ear fits into a receiver on the opposite coupler.
As can be seen, the couplers allow for a degree of difference between the couplers height above the top of rail and still make a successful coupling.
Referring to Balt's photo, if the height difference is too great the 'tip' won't be guided into the 'ear', instead it will just push on the top or bottom of the other drawbar.
Looks like coal cars in the photo, the air hoses are on the wrong sides. One car is facing the wrong way, neither of those drawbars are rotaries.
SD70Dude jeffhergert Is anyone else's BSometer pegged? Because mine finally just blew up. Jeff At least the border's closed. He's your problem, not ours.
Well, this so-called BS comes only from TSB on your side of the border.
Thanks for all the comments. I, too, am not a railroader. I watch at a small yard where daily a manifest sets out cars for the yard job. The conducter cuts off the cars to be set out, leaves the main and crosses over into the yard. He shoves back and stops at the switch to the track where the cars will be left. Then I see him hold the train while he sets the hand brake on the three end cars, turning the wheel with very tight. Then shoves cars back on to the track, stays near the switch, cuts the engines off, never goes back with the end cars during the shove. I didn't know if this was an infraction or not; it is done in full view of train master at times. Was wondering about this and wear on shoes and possible flat wheel tendency and if car owner gets the bill or no. Reason for my post.Size of cars set out averages 20-25 sometimes 40.
Northtowne
When I worked a transfer run from a CSX yard to a Conrail yard I got to watch a lot of Conrail trains while waiting for the CR dispatcher to let us return to CSX. I noticed that a large number of cars that had flat spots were cars with truck mounted brakes and that the flat spots were only on the B end or handbrake end of the car. This would seem to indicate that the flat spots were caused by moving the car with the handbrake applied.
Mark Vinski
mvlandswThis would seem to indicate that the flat spots were caused by moving the car with the handbrake applied.
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