Casual observation: When one comes across a grade crossing where there were rails only in the crossing and not beyond them on either end, one used to think that something had been taken up there and would soon be gone completely.Isn't it nice to be around now, when this could just as easily mean that a new track is being built? I'm near a project right now where Metra and UP are adding a third track to the West Line, between Vale (River Forest) and 25th Avenue (Melrose Park), and a couple of the grade crossings have already been installed, even if the tracks surrounding them haven't been. I started working on and around this line 47 years ago, and it has always been two tracks--in fact, it was directional double track when I started, but has been CTC for some time now--until now. And this isn't the only place where mainline trackage is being added around here. Same project, a little further west, will put in a third track between Kress (West Chicago) and Peck (west of Geneva). Not many grade crossings on this line, but it should involve some major bridge construction over the Fox River, and a few reconstructed grade separations as necessary to accommodate the added track. On the other side of town, progress through planning stages is slowly being made for a second track on the single-track portions of the South Shore Line between Gary and Michigan City. That will involve a number of grade crossings, and at least two overpasses over other railroads. It should also include a route around the street-running in Michigan City. (I don't know which, if any, of the options for this rerouting has been decided on.)
These are just the projects that I can keep tabs on regularly. That corridor in Chicago (NS, CSX, BRC, Metra) won't be as easy to track, but it might get done sooner than the SouthShore expansion....or should I say "expansions"? The new NICTD line from Hammond southward is to be built from scratch, mostly on the old Monon right-of-way. It's about as far along in the preliminaries as the two-tracking of the main line.Only recently, I've seen completed new third track along NS in Gary and a new second track stretch on Amtrak in Porter County, Indiana. They're up and functional now; I hope they've done their job of helping keep the trains on time, or satisfying requirements for more trains to run on the Michigan corridor. I guess that there will be new track on the Chicago-Milwaukee corridor, too, once the NIMBY issues are addressed.
To someone who has lived through the tear-out phases of the 60s, 70s, and 80s, this is so welcome! Some railroads, I know, still think this is the answer. I'm just glad it's not the answer around here.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Carl, as one who worked on the PRR's Buckeye Region in the second half of the 1950's. most of the trackage I was on (heavy 152# double track cab signalled) is GONE. Some very hard to even find traces of. Part (Cincinnati to NewCastle is now N&W) is still in operation. Cincinnati to Xenia is a trail. The CREATE project is a real positive in todays climate as is NICTD's expansion/double tracking. And the UP's (or is it METRA) adding a third track to the Metra UP West line is something that was needed. WHen one looks at the maps of where rails once were and see what is left, it is too easy to get discuraged about the industry. But then one looks at California and sees their transit growth, it gives me hope.
CShaveRR I guess that there will be new track on the Chicago-Milwaukee corridor, too, once the NIMBY issues are addressed.
In other words, neither of us will live long enough to see it happen.
It might be easier and cheaper to connect the CP line to the UP Milwaukee sub. The Milwaukee sub is underutilized, and with some (relatively) minor repairs, the line could be brought back to its original double-track status; after all, most, if not all, of the bridges that were in use back in the double-track days are still in place.
On the south side of Milwaukee, the UP could be made to connect to the CP near Chase, although one of the big bridges (over hwy 38) was recently removed in favor of a trail. There is another loction (Washington) where the CP could easily access the UP; however, that connection is to the Kenosha sub, which does eventually connect back to the Milwaukee sub at KO.
Hooking up the two lines in the Chicago area would be a bit more difficult.
Back to the crossing. I would not be surprised if the new track rides a little funny for a while after it goes into service with either little humps or dips at each crossing location until some point in the future when they have surfaced-through a few times and settlement cycles balance out. Understand why the crossings went in out-of-face, but those rascals are really hard to get right.
Grand! 1972, only seven "trolley lines" in North America: Toronto, Boston, Newark, Nj, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Shaker Heights, New Orlens, San Francisco.
(All PCC except New Orleans)
All seven survived, and all grew. Now we also have Los Angels, San Jose, Sacramento, Portland, Seattle, Twin Cities, Milwaukee about to open, El Paso, Buffalo, JerseyCity-Hoboken, Dallas, Houston, Baltimore, Washington, DC, Cincinnati, Takoma, Salt Lake City, Denver, Tampa, Memphis, Charlotte, Detroit, Kansas City, and Kenosha. May have left one or two out? More in construction or planning.
Total 31 (plus?)
Dave--- Atlanta's useless political street car
But the old ways don't go away - the yellow peril is quietly putting the KP, WP and part of the DRGW on the block because of the Wall Street Trash inspired PSR and the pronouncement of certain beancounter types out of touch with reality. (could we lay them off first?)
Pogo was right. (For those with enough whiskers to remember. The short-term, blinders-on and unaccountable Wall Street Trash won't see it.)
Dave: In Cincy, some of the original never-used streetcar infrastructure that was abandoned in 1928 may finally be in-use 100 years later.......but then, mismanagement by bus people and clueless political hacks could kill it all.
daveklepper Grand! 1972, only seven "trolley lines" in North America: Toronto, Boston, Newark, Nj, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Shaker Heights, New Orlens, San Francisco. (All PCC except New Orleans) All seven survived, and all grew. Now we also have Los Angels, San Jose, Sacramento, Portland, Seattle, Twin Cities, Milwaukee about to open, El Paso, Buffalo, JerseyCity-Hoboken, Dallas, Houston, Baltimore, Washington, DC, Cincinnati, Takoma, Salt Lake City, Denver, Tampa, Memphis, Charlotte, Detroit, Kansas City, and Kenosha. May have left one or two out? More in construction or planning. Total 31 (plus?)
Dave - Add Phoenix AZ to your list.
Separately, re: MC's post on Pogo: "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
- PDN.
I don't think Philly grew.
Am I still on moderation???
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
mudchickenBut the old ways don't go away - the yellow peril is quietly putting the KP, WP and part of the DRGW on the block because of the Wall Street Trash inspired PSR and the pronouncement of certain beancounter types out of touch with reality.
I am reluctant to go against you mudchicken, but why does the UP need the KP, WP and DRGW lines? They're duplicate routes. If their traffic can be handled on other routes why keep them? It just adds expense.
Sometimes those beancounters are right.
greyhounds mudchicken But the old ways don't go away - the yellow peril is quietly putting the KP, WP and part of the DRGW on the block because of the Wall Street Trash inspired PSR and the pronouncement of certain beancounter types out of touch with reality. I am reluctant to go against you mudchicken, but why does the UP need the KP, WP and DRGW lines? They're duplicate routes. If their traffic can be handled on other routes why keep them? It just adds expense. Sometimes those beancounters are right.
mudchicken But the old ways don't go away - the yellow peril is quietly putting the KP, WP and part of the DRGW on the block because of the Wall Street Trash inspired PSR and the pronouncement of certain beancounter types out of touch with reality.
(2) The lines are revenue adequate, just not enough for what they want to see.
(3) The lines have been their "ace in the hole" more than once when things go wrong on those more spreadsheet "sexy" lines. The KP was the relief valve on the UP transcon that was out of room to expand only a few short years ago between Cheyenne and Marysville/KC ... then the recession hit and traffic dropped.
Hey, that is correct. Did not include Atlanta. Maybe I had a reason?
Are there still trains running from Dayton Ohio east to Washington Court House on the old Pennsy RR ??I have been gone from Ohio for 55 yrs.
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
Paul, you may be closer to the actual situation then I am. Could you list which modern light rail and streetcar systems are a genuine contribution to commuter transit for the cities served and which are just huge toys?
I know Dallas and Houston and Baltimore and Seattle and Portland and San Diego and San Jose and Los Angeles definitely serve important transit functions.
Atlanta thus far seems a giant toy.
Charlotte seems to have morphed from the latter to the former.
What about Detroit, Cincinnati, Milwaukee, Kenosha?
Mybe your answer should start a new thread on the Transit Forum or possibly just reply here.
zugmannI don't think Philly grew.
I don't know how you'd classify the NJ Transit Diesel Multiple-Unit from Camden (other side of the Delaware River from PHL) to Trenton- it's kind of like a light rail but without the overhead wires.
One system, briefly mentioned arlier in this Thread was that of Memphis, Tn. IMHO surely classes as a 'toy' system.
It had its roots in the late 1980's (?). memphis had converted its Main Street to a pedestrian mall, and had operated a motor bus service down the major shopping areas of the street. Some one in the political hierarchy decidied a trolley service would better suit the area. So in the late 1980's the city'ss bus operation bought a group of elederly turn of the century trolley cars. They were primarily from Auastralia, and Portugal, and even from Brazil, IIRC. Had them re-worked and updated, somewhat(?).
The first line in service was the Main St. from the Repair facility to the Central RR station ( at the time primarily, ICRR). The second line was the Riverside (completion of a loop back to the Trolley Barn.) Made for an enjoyable ride, and was parallel to the Mississippi River Drive; more or less, from the RR station area North, it was a pretty severe down grade for the elderly cars. They then recreated the line from Downtown to the Medical Center( a line that had existed pre-1950's(?).
There had been some local hope they would incorporate a connection out to the Airport,from the downtown link. Apparently, has yet to be done(?).
Then there were proposals to open a line from downtown to the Casino areas of Mississippi in Tunica County. A line that would have utilized, in part, IC RR rows, the old Y&MV ROW and some trackage to get the line built. Diden't Happen, either.
IMHO they missed another really great opportunity to lay a line out from downtown to a suburban residential area (Cordova, Tn) to approximately Eads, Tn. Originally, NC&StL /L&N and finally CSX ownership. In the 1990's CSX had gone out, and relaid it with a very heavy rail, new ties, and the WHY was unknown to most at the time. It would have made for a pretty heavily commuter traffic feeder line, at the time. Apparently, that line has since been 'lifted'.
Having been away for some years, I have no idea as to trolley ridership there now. But the MATA tolley system in Memphis, sure seems to qualify as a 'toy'.
zugmann I don't think Philly grew. Am I still on moderation???
Zug, if your post comes up immediately than you can be sure your moderation's over. That's how mine worked out.
Firelock76Zug, if your post comes up immediately than you can be sure your moderation's over. That's how mine worked out.
Nope. Not yet, even though I was told it would be over.
Hence the bold question.
mudchicken Dave: In Cincy, some of the original never-used streetcar infrastructure that was abandoned in 1928 may finally be in-use 100 years later.......but then, mismanagement by bus people and clueless political hacks could kill it all.
MC,
That would be quite someting if the Cincy subway finally gets used. First I read about it was in Keenan's book on the Cinncinnatti and Lake Erie - t was hoped to be the standard gauge single trolley wire connection to downtown Cincy.
Dave: Cincinnati's system (from nowhere to nowhere) was intended to be a circulator with other pieces feeding it. It is failing badly. Locally often pointed out as a local political and planning fail.
samfp1943 The first line in service was the Main St. from the Repair facility to the Central RR station ( at the time primarily, ICRR).
This was actually part of making several blocks of Main Street a mall (which wouldn't have supported bus service) and is actually fairly well patronized at various times during the day, in part because it's only $1 to ride it.
The second line was the Riverside (completion of a loop back to the Trolley Barn.) Made for an enjoyable ride, and was parallel to the Mississippi River Drive; more or less, from the RR station area North, it was a pretty severe down grade for the elderly cars.
The River Loop rather cleverly utilized one of the two existing tracks on the Amtrak route to Central Station as the 'southbound' leg. Thing is, the line up the bluffs along Riverside Drive is UPgrade going southbound, the only way it operates, with the return coming across at Central Station and then north again down the same route as the original Main Street Trolley, which was enlarged to allow the two services to coexist. So while it's a power concern for the cars (possibly contributing to the somewhat disastrous issues that put the fleet out of service for so long?) there was no real concern with braking.
They then recreated the line from Downtown to the Medical Center( a line that had existed pre-1950's(?).
Suspect the route to Cleveland might have been trolleybus early -- Memphis had an enormous electric-bus system, but tourists don't appreciate those things. There was enormous cost involved in bridging the trolley tracks over one of the north-south arteries, and there are problems to this day in how the lining and surfacing of the trolley rails, laid in cement, align with the road grade. The very high expense isn't really reflected in either utility or ride quality. But those don't hold a candle to the ridiculous...
There had been some local hope they would incorporate a connection out to the Airport,from the downtown link. Apparently, has yet to be done
This was really the only logical excuse for doing the Cleveland extension, as a 'tap' from it (expensive, but do-able) would have reached a NS line angling over to the airport area, making relatively quick service to and from the airport area and various downtown Memphis areas adjacent to the existing network possible. I in fact went so far as to make arrangements for rather interesting initial high-speed service on such a route ... when ...
... the 'official' preferred alternative went highly, and stupidly, political, requiring that the line run slowly, and expensively, through a variety of local neighborhoods to serve what was admittedly a logical clientele: low-income airport workers who didn't own their own vehicles. Problem is that by the time these plans were contrived, the budget for the line was about 4.4 BILLION which is out of any reasonable proportion ... and the trip time was ridiculously high, exposed to all sorts of traffic and weather delays, and taking much longer than the existing fairly comprehensive bus system serving in addition to the airport directly a satellite terminal (with direct service by regional and national bus carriers!) close to the airport.
This would not have been a trolley system at all, of course: what was required was essentially a 'cruise' train with its own amenities, even an extension of casino-type hospitality services for potential gamers of all types, much more than the typical subsidized 'bus ride with a free roll of quarters' that is the usual norm. Some interesting possibilities for this, including historic equipment and inclusion of dinner-train-style services. AS SUCH this is still possible, like the Amtrak extension of service along the Meridian Speedway to the casinos in Shreveport/Bossier, but it hinges on substantial guaranteed amounts from the casinos involved, which they have been reluctant, at best, to discuss.
IMHO, they missed another really great opportunity to lay a line out from downtown to a suburban residential area (Cordova, Tn) to approximately Eads, Tn. Originally, NC&StL /L&N and finally CSX ownership. In the 1990's CSX had gone out, and relaid it with a very heavy rail, new ties, and the WHY was unknown to most at the time.
I thought it was pretty darn clear that the 'purpose' was to facilitate expansion of the Cordova Substation, off Latting Road north of Macon, where some very substantial equipment was delivered; in fact, the last move I remember seeing on the line was a very large transformer move via TVA Schnabel or similar car.
It would have made for a pretty heavily commuter traffic feeder line, at the time. Apparently, that line has since been 'lifted'.
This was on the old NC&StL ROW made redundant when the L&N merged them in in the late '50s. The problem was that the traffic wasn't assured, and the development cost at many of the prospective stations involved considerable parking and road arrangements, while regional subsidies were neither available nor forthcoming. It only made sense to operate this with individual diesel railcars (expensive) or rebuilt RDCs (limited), and it did not help that the construction of loop highway 385 not only severed the ROW in a way that would be extremely difficult to 'remediate' even for limited-clearance track but did not facilitate transfer from highway to rail. The nail in the coffin was the large number of grade crossings across what in some cases (Germantown Road, for one) were by that time heavily trafficked multilane thoroughfares, impossible to grade-separate, and the arrangements involved west of any possible connection through the complex between the IC (now CN) freight line and the extended trackage out "Broadway" toward the Mississippi bridges, which couldn't be separated from heavy fast freight trains physically, and with very little practical possibility of being separated temporally.
It would have made an interesting commuter service, but at least part of the justification was creation of 'counterflow commercial development' in the Arlington area that would have provided incentives for linking the train to both PUDs and commercial space 'out east' as well as from suburbs to downtown. That plan essentially had the door slammed on it when Arlington closed their airport and built only opportunistic piecemeal development on the land...
Firelock76 zugmann I don't think Philly grew. Am I still on moderation??? Zug, if your post comes up immediately than you can be sure your moderation's over. That's how mine worked out.
I could never understand why either of you were put on moderation.
Dave K., In addition to Atlanta, Pheonix and San Diego already added, Wiki also mentions light rail for Little Rock, Norfolk, St. Louis, and Tucson.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail_in_the_United_States
And St. Louis is defnitely not a toy. Cannot figure out how I missed it. The line to Bellville is a real interurban, in every sense.
charlie hebdo Firelock76 zugmann I don't think Philly grew. Am I still on moderation??? Zug, if your post comes up immediately than you can be sure your moderation's over. That's how mine worked out. I could never understand why either of you were put on moderation.
Charlie, I can't tell you about Zug, butif you want private message me and I'll tell you what happened in my case. I'm not sorry by the way, I did what I thought had to be done. I don't want to go public with the whole sequence of events, I'll probably get nailed all over again if I do!
I'll respond when I can. I'm away from home and using a hotel courtesy computer when it's available. I don't like it, doesn't work like mine. It's like driving someone elses car or like Lady Firestorm's mom used to say...
"Other people's kitchens! Nothing's where it's supposed to be!"
charlie hebdoI could never understand why either of you were put on moderation.
Looks like the Warden gave me a pardon.
Guess now I have to try to behave myself. And stay away from a certain thread, I guess.
zugmann charlie hebdo I could never understand why either of you were put on moderation. Looks like the Warden gave me a pardon. Guess now I have to try to behave myself. And stay away from a certain thread, I guess.
charlie hebdo I could never understand why either of you were put on moderation.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
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