The rail line out behind my office has a slow order somewhere in the next mile that cause the trains to putt-putt by at 5-10 mph. Would an engineer typically ride along at normal speed until he/she was close and jam on the brakes, or just let off the gas a ways back and let the train's weight slow it down sufficiently? The line is flat and 99% of the traffic is unit trains of grain, ethanol and pink rocks.
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Probably a little of both, depending on the actual profile. I wouldn't use the term "jam on the brakes," but taking a first service in time to slow down would be appropriate.
Also depends in part on how big a hurry they need to be in (what's the normal speed there?). If they need to run significantly faster to maintain a schedule, etc, then the transition between track speed and the slow order will be that much more abrupt, in keeping with good train handling.
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Looking forward to confirmation from the railroaders, but don't the computerized systems (like LEADER) automatically calculate the best combination of fuel conservation/brake wear reduction vs. schedule (or other priority) to give the slowing for and then re-acceleration from slow orders for a given consist? I know the stuff I was working on in the '80s did.
Murphy Siding Would an engineer typically ride along at normal speed until he/she was close and jam on the brakes, or just let off the gas a ways back and let the train's weight slow it down sufficiently?
I would go for somewhere in between. Use dynamics to slow the train down as you approach. Air if neccesary, but most likely not needed.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
OvermodLooking forward to confirmation from the railroaders, but don't the computerized systems (like LEADER) automatically calculate the best combination of fuel conservation/brake wear reduction vs. schedule (or other priority) to give the slowing for and then re-acceleration from slow orders for a given consist? I know the stuff I was working on in the '80s did.
To my knowledge, which is not complete, LEADER and Trip Optimizer do not have Temporary Slow orders in their data base of the subdivisions they are used on. Engineers still have to make the operating decisions for those actions.
Generally, if as line gets hit with 10 MPH Slow Orders, they tend to have more than one at a time - the relationsip of the Slow Orders to each other can have a consequence on how a train is operated. If two 10 MPH slow orders are three miles apart and you are operating a 10K foot train - what is the benefit of attempting to accelerate and then brake in the mile between where your rear end clears one slow order and your head end encounters the next.
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zugmann Murphy Siding Would an engineer typically ride along at normal speed until he/she was close and jam on the brakes, or just let off the gas a ways back and let the train's weight slow it down sufficiently? I would go for somewhere in between. Use dynamics to slow the train down as you approach. Air if neccesary, but most likely not needed.
Murphy Siding zugmann Murphy Siding Would an engineer typically ride along at normal speed until he/she was close and jam on the brakes, or just let off the gas a ways back and let the train's weight slow it down sufficiently? I would go for somewhere in between. Use dynamics to slow the train down as you approach. Air if neccesary, but most likely not needed. In flat corn filed country where the normal track speed I would guess to be about 45 mph, would dynamics normally be enough to get the job done? How much does inertia and gravity play into slowing down? If the power was suddenly cut out or turned down drastically, does the weight of the train make it tend to start slowing to a stop, or does the inertia make it want to keep moving?
In flat corn filed country where the normal track speed I would guess to be about 45 mph, would dynamics normally be enough to get the job done? How much does inertia and gravity play into slowing down? If the power was suddenly cut out or turned down drastically, does the weight of the train make it tend to start slowing to a stop, or does the inertia make it want to keep moving?
Uphill, downhill or level - all affect the movement.
You eye may not be able to detect the grade - the inertia of the train will.
Today's Extended Range Dynamic braking is fully able to control territory such as you are describing.
BaltACDToday's Extended Range Dynamic braking is fully able to control territory such as you are describing.
I routinely use dynamics to hold our Christmas trains in the 12-15 MPH range on the way back down the hill from the "North Pole."
An example of great engineer control of a train occurred here the other day. His IM train came down the grade approaching the siding signal showing approach, The siding has a sag in the middle Coming down grade he knocked off the dynamics and the train slowed in the sag until it was going "double low girl walking speed ". Continued to slow ntil a flat wheel thumped about every 10 seconds as the train continued to slow and finally stopped with what can only assume loco brakes only.
Once siding was occupied by north bound train he smoothly started the train with only a little slack running out.
BaltACD Overmod Looking forward to confirmation from the railroaders, but don't the computerized systems (like LEADER) automatically calculate the best combination of fuel conservation/brake wear reduction vs. schedule (or other priority) to give the slowing for and then re-acceleration from slow orders for a given consist? I know the stuff I was working on in the '80s did. To my knowledge, which is not complete, LEADER and Trip Optimizer do not have Temporary Slow orders in their data base of the subdivisions they are used on. Engineers still have to make the operating decisions for those actions. Generally, if as line gets hit with 10 MPH Slow Orders, they tend to have more than one at a time - the relationsip of the Slow Orders to each other can have a consequence on how a train is operated. If two 10 MPH slow orders are three miles apart and you are operating a 10K foot train - what is the benefit of attempting to accelerate and then brake in the mile between where your rear end clears one slow order and your head end encounters the next.
Overmod Looking forward to confirmation from the railroaders, but don't the computerized systems (like LEADER) automatically calculate the best combination of fuel conservation/brake wear reduction vs. schedule (or other priority) to give the slowing for and then re-acceleration from slow orders for a given consist? I know the stuff I was working on in the '80s did.
Both LEADER and Trip Optimizer have temporary restrictions within their data base. If the systems are in use, it will slow down for the restriction and speed back up once clear. That being said, I wouldn't expect BNSF has either in place on the track going by Murphy.
Throttle modulation first, dynamics second, air brakes third is the order the railroads like to see for controlling speed.
For Murphy's situation, I'd just ease off, using the lay of the land first. Even what seems flat usually has some slight undulations. If that's not enough, use some dynamics. It depends on the train, and if a unit train whether loaded or empty, how early to ease off. It all comes down to planning. As I was once told, an engineer needs to think five miles ahead and up to 2 or 3 miles behind.
Many times I can run my territory, either way, even with a loaded coal train, and not touch the air except for stopping or on the severest grade.
Jeff
Jeff, are there any old heads out there who can regale you with stories of getting the trains over the road without dynamic brakes? Until the SD40-2s arrived, CNW didn't use dynamics--to the point of having them removed from CGW and other secondhand units.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
CShaveRR Jeff, are there any old heads out there who can regale you with stories of getting the trains over the road without dynamic brakes? Until the SD40-2s arrived, CNW didn't use dynamics--to the point of having them removed from CGW and other secondhand units.
I've heard a few stories. Most of those old heads are retired now. Speaking of old heads, I've even met a few members of the Century Club. Members are those who were on trains that reached, or slightly exceeded, 100 mph. The ones that I knew were riding TOFC trains.
The original CNW SD-45 units without dynamics sure look different from everyone else's SD-45 units.
Can someone explain Leader and Trip Optimizer please? I'm perceiving it as a computer system that nags you....er suggests you how to operate your train for optimum fuel mileage(?) I picture it like the talking feature on a GPS phone app. "In 300 feet, turn right into the treeless ravine".
Murphy Siding Can someone explain Leader and Trip Optimizer please? I'm perceiving it as a computer system that nags you....er suggests you how to operate your train for optimum fuel mileage(?) I picture it like the talking feature on a GPS phone app. "In 300 feet, turn right into the treeless ravine".
http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/bizns/archives/Summer2014/article3_augbizns.html
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20130709006272/en/GE-Transportation%E2%80%99s-Trip-Optimizer-Achieves-100-Million
CShaveRRare there any old heads out there who can regale you with stories of getting the trains over the road without dynamic brakes? Until the SD40-2s arrived, CNW didn't use dynamics-
When I would receive a train with dynamics I would consider it a luxury, and would look forward to the trip. Those dash2's were so nice compared with all the old power.
The CNW SD40-2's (6801-6925) had dynamics, fridge, electric baseboard heaters, and good seals around the doors; plus they were extremely dependable and predictable. And with 'light engines' they had a '0 to 60' time of about 30 seconds!
Whereas the old power had none of that; even worse, the old units had an ice chest that you had to lug bags of ice to fill, plus the ice box was a heavy, solid metal-frame box with sharp edges, and was a lethal object in the cab in the event of a roll-over.
The worst thing about the SD50 was the extremely small toilet compartment--suitable in size for maybe a nice cat litter box, but just about useless for anyone over 120#.
zugmann Murphy Siding Can someone explain Leader and Trip Optimizer please? I'm perceiving it as a computer system that nags you....er suggests you how to operate your train for optimum fuel mileage(?) I picture it like the talking feature on a GPS phone app. "In 300 feet, turn right into the treeless ravine". http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/bizns/archives/Summer2014/article3_augbizns.html https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20130709006272/en/GE-Transportation%E2%80%99s-Trip-Optimizer-Achieves-100-Million
LEADER comes in two forms. The first was engineer assist, where it prompts the engineer to change throttle or dynamic brake positions. It will also prompt to set or release air brake applications. It works better with empty unit trains or smaller manifests. I won't follow it's prompts at certain locations. It seems to always be calculating and reacting to where it's at and where it's going to be. This results on some downgrades in the prompting going back and forth between power and dynamics, when it should get into and stay in dynamics. I followed the prompts one time and LEADER did the nearly impossible, caused a DPU coal train to break into two pieces. (Many train separations have been caused by engineers following the prompts, especially on some of the land barges they like to run.)
The second version is auto throttle. That is once engaged it runs the throttle and dynamic brakes. It will prompt for air brake applications and releases if it calculates dynamics alone won't slow or hold the train.
Even with the engineer assist/auto throttle deactivated, it will still prompt for air brake manipulation. My favorite is when coming to a stop at a red absolute signal on the down hill side of a 1% grade and it prompts, "Release Air Brake application now." I'm expecting someone to eventually be so conditioned to reacting to the prompts to do just that.
Trip Optimizer is completely auto throttle. It also will prompt for air brake operation if the system calculates it's necessary.
Neither system recognizes signals, they both "think" you are running on clear block signals. A next generation integrated into PTC will operate with approach (yellow) signals, but can't stop the train at the red signal. Yet.
I haven't had the chance to operate with Trip Optimizer integrated with PTC. Last I knew (I've been on vacation) we have been instructed to not operate the energey managment systems. They issued those instructions back in late January and also instructed everyone to run all engines on line (up to power/dp axle restrictions) at the same time. Before I went on vacation, they removed the using everything for power instructions on my territory and I'm expecting to find us having to use the EMS again.
It sounds like the systems amount to prompts to tell the engineer how to handle the throttle and brakes but it's up to the engineer whether he/she follows it to a T? I can comprehend how information about the track dynamics could be preset in the system. How is the information about locomotives used, train length, train weight, etc. get input into the system? If one of the locomotives has issues do all the prompts become useless?
Murphy Siding How is the information about locomotives used, train length, train weight, etc. get input into the system? If one of the locomotives has issues do all the prompts become useless?
All that stuff is pulled from the computer system. When a train is built it's all entered in and leader/TO pulls it from that. Changed can be amde enroute if needed.
You can select which engines are running, or not, as well.
Does an engineer get yelped at for not following the prompts? At the time by the system, or later by a higher up?
Murphy Siding Does an engineer get yelped at for not following the prompts? At the time by the system, or later by a higher up?
The system allows 14 seconds to comply with a prompt. (The prompt is both visual and audible. Although the audible alert sometimes doesn't work.) The system makes a record and a manager later coaches the engineer. Unless the engineer had a good reason for ignoring the prompt and filled out an electronic EMS feedback/defect form. Not following the prompts too many times without good reason leads to discipline, for failure to comply with instructions. At least that's how it's handled where I work.
As Zug said, the train info is downloaded when logging on. We're to edit the computer consist to reflect our paperwork. Usually, just minor differences. And we edit the consist after making setouts and/or pickups. If editing results in numbers over 10% different from the original consist, the system sometimes won't work and will call for manual control.
jeffhergertUnless the engineer had a good reason for ignoring the prompt and filled out an electronic EMS feedback/defect form. Not following the prompts too many times without good reason leads to discipline, for failure to comply with instructions. At least that's how it's handled where I work.
Jeff, Zug, or anyone else that uses this or a similar system, if you can safely answer without fear of retaliation:Do you prefer to have the system nag you, or would prefer to think for yourself?Do you feel that you can run a train better with the system?Do you like having the information the system provides?Do you think it really helps that much that it justifies the cost?Do you feel management will use this as a further tool for discipline?
jeffhergertThe system allows 14 seconds to comply with a prompt. (The prompt is both visual and audible. Although the audible alert sometimes doesn't work.) The system makes a record and a manager later coaches the engineer. Unless the engineer had a good reason for ignoring the prompt and filled out an electronic EMS feedback/defect form. Not following the prompts too many times without good reason leads to discipline, for failure to comply with instructions.
zardozJeff, Zug, or anyone else that uses this or a similar system, if you can safely answer without fear of retaliation:
I have very limited expereince using the stuff. I mostly run 30 year old 4 axles that don't have any of that crap in them.
I prefer to run the train myself. There are places I will turn off LEADER because it does a bad job in some areas. Once through the problem spots, I will let it run me again. The only thing good about LEADER is the information displayed on the screen. It predicts what your speed might be up a few miles ahead of you. (When in use and prompting mode, it seems to want to run fast where it should be thinking about going slower and run slow when it should be going faster. I think it might be the constant calculating and predicting speed ahead. It "sees" that it will be overspeed a mile or so ahead so wants to throttle down. Than it "sees" that it's underspeed now, so wants to throttle up. Just back and forth like that at times.) It has a buff/draft indicator, speedometer and accelerometer. The display shows crossings and bridges/culverts. It also shows maximum speed and where permanent and temporary slows are at. (LEADER asks if you want to accept or reject a temporary slow. If you're on a 50mph train, no reason to accept a 50mph or above slow. Also handy since LDR doesn't know which track you're on in multiple main track areas.) I like the screen, but I can do better than the computer prompts in many areas.
LEADER auto throttle version works better. Although, when the fence is up and you're running the DP separately from the head end, LDR only makes throttle/dynamic changes on one engine consist at a time. With about 20 or 30 seconds being the norm anymore to have a DP show that it has responded to the head end, sometimes LDR just waits to do anything until the DP has responded. It got us down to 5mph because LDR was waiting for the DP show that it had responded to the last command. (7 to 10 seconds used to be a long time to wait for the DP to update. Now 7 or 10 seconds is a quick responce time. IMO, it's antennas and connections that maybe aren't maintained as well as they should be causing the delays. I think this will eventually be an issue with PTC. The least, last thought of component will cause the most problems.)
Trip Optimizer is completely auto throttle. It does a better job. A lot better. Maybe even better than I do, because I usually get speed down for a slow a 1/4 mile or so before it. It gets you down to the prescribed speed just as the engine reaches it. I once turned it off and took over because I thought it wouldn't get down in time. In retrospect, it might have. I just didn't want to take the chance. The Trip Optimizer algorithms are supposed to be the ones used for PTC. Trip Optimizer's display is a bit lacking compared to LDR. I suppose since they feel T-O will be running the train when in use, they feel the engineer doesn't need as much information.
When they rolled out LDR, they said they figured they would save about 11% on fuel usuage. about a year or so back, they said it was the success they expected, with savings in the high single digits. So I guess, they are trying to say maybe a 6% savings? (When we had a failure of EMS, we were to talk to the help desk and get a ticket # for the problem. It was said they were thinking about suing NYAB since LDR didn't deliver what they thought it would.) Since last January we have been instructed by track bulletin to not use either EMS, LEADER or Trip Optimizer. (We also were instructed to use all available engines, up to powered axle limits.) The word was they were on the verge of losing a large intermodal contract because they were more worried about fuel conservation than getting trains over the road. I went on vacation in mid-July and about a week before, they had removed the use of all available power in most areas, including mine. Now we're back to just using enough power they deem necessary. I'm expecting when I get back to work, they'll also have started using the EMS again, when possible. I'm not sure if they concluded that using a bit more fuel didn't gain them anything, or they think they've mollified for now any possible customer revolt. The 4th quarter is coming don't you know.
My experience with Trip Optimizer was that it is slow. It would slow down way too far in advance. Then there were times when it would not slow down soon enough. It would approach a 30 mph at 35 and then decide to use the dynamic. By the time it cycled from power to dynamic and back to power the speed would be 20 mph. I could hit 30 mph just by adjusting the throttle.
It may save fuel on individual trains by going slow but that doesn't consider the effect on any number of following trains that are delayed.
Mark Vinski
I've heard others say T-O runs slow, but I've only experienced one time when it did. I had a welded rail train about 1/4 loaded. The paperwork showed a weight equal to a fully loaded train. The T-O calculated the trip for a fully loaded train. On the heaviest grades, since T-O calculated the train (due to the weight) would crest the grade at about 15mph, it ran the train to crest the grade at 15mph. On the second heavy grade, again showing a plan for 15mph, I took over and went over the top at 30 mph.
I've always felt going into slows, T-O likes to run hot. Hence the time I took over from it.
One other thing about LEADER. We have around some terminal areas Manual Control Only zones. It's because in these areas signals may be less than clear so they figure manual control will be required. The bad thing is, in these zones you lose the operation screen completely. It was told us that LEADER is supposed to assist the engineer, even if the prompts/auto throttle are inactive. So much for that idea.
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