Let's have some fun

[espeefoamer]

I would buy the ex WC SD 45s from CN, and rebuild them with 16 cylinder engines.I would buy their F45s for executive specials and occasional fantrips.These would also be rebuilt with 16 cylinder engines.I would buy GP 38s or GP38-2s for the branches.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nw2608

You are the purchaser of motive power on a regional railroad with a trunk line of about 1000 miles which has several 1% grades but no sharp curves. The railroad is in the high desert so keep thinking turbocharged. The road has several branches to mines which have 2% grades and again no sharp curves. All the rail is welded, heavy, with no weight restrictions. Traffic is minerals from the mines and bridge traffic which is mostly finished products, lumber, and grain. The owner has given you the following items to think about: No DASH 9's or AC power (too new), no SD70's (Too good), and no SD40-2's (worship one God, not two). Don't worry about quantity. What models of locomtives would you purchase?

You have n't given me the following important information that I need to make my decsion.

1. How much traffic is moving?

2. What kinds of minerals or metals are moving? Unit trains or smaller groups of cars?

3. Is grain moving in unit trains? How big?

4. How many crew points?

5. Yards? How many? Hump?

6. How many local customers? Where?

LC

[Anonymous]

I have to agree with Mark, my list was just thrown together in a few minutes before heading out for dinner.

You're proposed "just for fun" power list really leaves out a lot of the reasons for choosing specific power. In addition to the general railroad characteristics, some of which you have provided and the traffic information and some financial information that Mark and I have requested you need a great deal more about the strategy of your railroad (as Mark also suggests). To me, a big part of the fun of this type of exercise is to make it realistic and challenging, which right now it isn't. Oh, and also, you have to tell me what my starting point is.

7. What sort of locomotives are in use now?

8.What mistakes have my predecessors made that will bind my power choices?

9. What is my budget?

10. What are my limitations on credit?

11. Will I be buying the power or leasing? Power by the hour an option?

12. What are you paying me to consult on this issue (not really, but it needs to go into the transaction cost for pro forma purposes)?

13. How will I be repairing/maintaining the units? What facillities are available online?

14. Who will supply parts? On what basis (credit/COD/etc)?

15. Will there be manufacturers warranties?

16. What special regulations should I worry about? EPA? FRA?

17. What are my track speeds?

18. What is the signalling on my railroad?

19. How is traffic controlled?

I'm sure there are other questions, but that's what I can think of now.

LC

[Randy Stahl]

what locomotives would I buy? CHEAP ones!!!!!

[Randy Stahl]

You mean we get to have a round house!! Most startups I've been involved with didn't even have a pit. Like my boss used to say " start with cheap ones , run the wheels off them.
Randy

[Junctionfan]

For switching power I would purchase 25 brand new MP20DC and for heavy haul I would purchase 15 SD60M and 20 SD60I. For extreme power I would have EMD custom build 5 SD90M as it would not be AC power.

[Randy Stahl]

Theres a bunch of people on this forum I'd hire to work on power , I think between all of us we could make anything run.
Randy

[Randy Stahl]

My wife will reccomend I stay there!!!!!LOL You should have seen all the bungee cords when we started the WC!!!! EVERYONE thought we were nuts for buying SD45s including ME!!!!
Randy

[Randy Stahl]

I 've been in volved in many RR startups, ya gotta love it man!!!
Randy

[Randy Stahl]

Buy my Alco S-6
Randy

[ericsp]

I know you should not burn any bridges when you leave a company, but I would be tempted to suggest the the owner remove his head from somewhere, use your imagination. This is not a shot at NW2068, I know why he said no SD40-2s but that would be ridiculous to do that in real life.

The information is not enough to know what type of locomotive to buy, but what he has given us, unless the line has a high speed limit, for road power I would go exclusively for locomotives with a relatively high weight-to-HP ratio. It sounds like there is alot of heavy lifting to be done.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nw2608

You are the purchaser of motive power on a regional railroad with a trunk line of about 1000 miles which has several 1% grades but no sharp curves. The railroad is in the high desert so keep thinking turbocharged. The road has several branches to mines which have 2% grades and again no sharp curves. All the rail is welded, heavy, with no weight restrictions. Traffic is minerals from the mines and bridge traffic which is mostly finished products, lumber, and grain. The owner has given you the following items to think about: No DASH 9's or AC power (too new), no SD70's (Too good), and no SD40-2's (worship one God, not two). Don't worry about quantity. What models of locomtives would you purchase?

OK, I'm quoting your original premise and I'm gonna try to add in some answers to my questions and those Mark has put in the mix to try to get you the barebones of a framework to project some motive power. I'll add assumptions based upon today. Face it, there are no time machines, so you won't see any Alcos or Baldwins in the mix.

Based upon what you have said I'm assuming minimal coal traffic. The high desert that I know doesn't have many coal mines unless you count Utah or Wyoming as high desert. I will assume that as a smart regional you are lucky enough to serve a handful of coal fired generating stations. I assume that there are 3 trains weekly of 130 cars or less moving to each of the four generating stations. To keep this traffic moving I will need a minimum of four big six axles per train. I will need to keep 12 train sets moving weekly. For that I need a minimum of 48 units with 100% availability. I either need to buy or lease units with a clause requiring availablity or I need to allow additional units in my acquisition to cover for unit failures based upon my failue analysis of the units acquired by purchase or lease. As you can see these decisions are complicated.

OK, so what about grain? Grain can be steady or very seasonal, or both. Where is your grain going? You are in the high desert. Most of your grain I would expect to be going west. You are likely too far west for the grain to move economically to the Gulf and likewise the Mississippi and Great Lakes ports are too far. Your markets will likely be the major Pacific Northwest grain exporting ports and possibly other local users such as major feed mills and plants such as flour mills in the far west. 105 car units are common, but if you are depending upon bridge traffic you won't get those. BNSF and UP have tied up most of the major elevators capable of loading the large units and as they have a duopoly on access to the ports in the west those trains won't come your way. Most likely you'll get 25 or 50 car units that will be part of your merchandise trains. Id guess you'll need to run at least one daily train of 100+ cars each way plus locals. I'd guess. With 1,000 miles of mainline you'll need at least 3 crew change points. The trains will take at least 2 days to cross you line. So that will tie up at least 10 road units. Locals perhaps an additional twenty smaller units.

Minerals make up the bulk of your traffic, you say. What's out in that part of the world mineral wise. Perhaps copper if you have an online smelter. Not enough carloads to worry about unless you serve both the mines and the smelter. You might have some rock salt, sulphur, potash, soda ash and other minerals but these are likely to move in smaller even single car groups. There isn't much worthwhile in the way of coal deposits in the high desert perhpas some low btu lignite but that stuff can't compete with Powder Basin coal unless the user is very close at hand, too close to make a rail haul feasible.

Lumber, paper, plastic, foodstuffs and chemicals will likely round out your traffic. These will be enroute to local users.

You'll notice I haven't mentioned intermodal. There will be little or none given your lack of access to ports. You might be able to develop an intermodal terminal, but this is a long shot.

Your traffic base will be relatively small given your competition. I'll postulate interchange at KC with the BNSF, KCS, CPR, and UP. Western interchange with UP and BNSF somewhere in California. My problem is, I can't see any route that would fufill the criteria you have set forth. I chose KC because otherwise you would be competing directly with BNSF and UP and I doubt you'd last long then, no matter what power you have.

Based upon what you have told me I checked a survey of regional railroads (Annual Data Profile 1999 by Upper Great Plains Transportation Inst.) and found they have an average in the Pacific Region of $467/car revenue for regional railroads. The average length of haul by regionals was 159 miles. This puts revenue per mile per carload at an average of $2.93. Assuming you are running at least an average railroad, which according to "experts" requires a minimum of 100 originating or terminating carloads per mile annually, your railroad would generate 100,000 carloads (Better than most in reality and very unlikely in your neck of the woods, but with the great route you have, maybe). So your annual revenue for transportation would be a little over $46.5Million.

Figure an operating ratio of 80 that would include your approximate track maintenance cost (25%) or $11.625Million, approximate employee costs (30%) or $16.275Million, car hire (10%) or $4.650Million, fuel costs (10%) or $4.650Million. That would leave at best 5% for all rolling stock related costs including locomotives to maintain the operating ratio. This calculus is based on industry averages not included in the Survey although some of the averages are based upon that data and other data.

According to the survey, small railroads including regionals self funded 79% of their capital expenditures for locomotives. On your railroad that would leave you with a maximum of $2.325Million annually to spend on locomotives as the internal contribution and a total of $2.943Million total for locomotive expenditures. Sounds like your locomotives will be older, cheaper models of necessity unless you have a lot of other untapped assets in your company.

Based upon what I know of the existing market and your need to actually move 200,000 cars/year (remember you'll be moving empties as well as loads in roughly equal numbers, you hope), you'll be looking at a fleet of some older EMDs probably SD40s, SD40-2s, and SD50s for six axles and GP40s, GP40-2s, GP38s, GP38AC, GP38-2s, GP39s, GP39-2s, and GEs probably C30-7s, C39-8s fo six axles and B23-7s, B30-7s, B36-7s and whatever else you can scrape up cheap. Possibly some SW1500s or MP15s for yard duties but they have been too expensive of late. Better a four axle and a slug. Of course you might be able to get a few new units over time depending upon your ability to tack a few units on someone elses order especially if you can get the same terms.

Based upon the above I'd go with at least 30 six axle road units and another 20+ four axles. Whatever the market can sell you.

Sorry this is so long.

LC

[Anonymous]

[:p][:p]FP45's and gp9's
[:p][:p][:p]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

what locomotives would I buy? CHEAP ones!!!!!

Damn right!

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Oh sure, Randy. Just go ahead and guarantee yourself lifetime employment. "Gee, I'm sorry the roundhouse hours are so high, Mr. Owner. I just don't know what went wrong ..."

YES, cheap. Buy 'em, run 'em, throw them away. Parts are expensive -- used power right now is cheap.

LOL, while you have a point Mark, many short lines regionals and even a Class 1 (KCS comes to mind) have bought up a lot of junk and rebuilt it. In many ways it is preferable to have in house folks do the work, then you at least know where the problems are...

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

I 've been in volved in many RR startups, ya gotta love it man!!!
Randy

Randy-

Tell us about 'em... I might learn something...

LC

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Oh sure, Randy. Just go ahead and guarantee yourself lifetime employment. "Gee, I'm sorry the roundhouse hours are so high, Mr. Owner. I just don't know what went wrong ..."

YES, cheap. Buy 'em, run 'em, throw them away. Parts are expensive -- used power right now is cheap.

LOL, while you have a point Mark, many short lines regionals and even a Class 1 (KCS comes to mind) have bought up a lot of junk and rebuilt it. In many ways it is preferable to have in house folks do the work, then you at least know where the problems are...

LC

shortlines buy those because they either can't afford to get better locomotives or their track is not heavy enough or the line it self can't support anything big. Also who wants to spend money on a nice GP40 or a 6 axle engine if the curves are too tights and/or they don't serve enough industries that can pay for the maintainance and fuel of the engine. Disposible alcos and old SWs as well as old B or U ge units are easier and so cheaper to come by.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Oh sure, Randy. Just go ahead and guarantee yourself lifetime employment. "Gee, I'm sorry the roundhouse hours are so high, Mr. Owner. I just don't know what went wrong ..."

YES, cheap. Buy 'em, run 'em, throw them away. Parts are expensive -- used power right now is cheap.

LOL, while you have a point Mark, many short lines regionals and even a Class 1 (KCS comes to mind) have bought up a lot of junk and rebuilt it. In many ways it is preferable to have in house folks do the work, then you at least know where the problems are...

LC

shortlines buy those because they either can't afford to get better locomotives or their track is not heavy enough or the line it self can't support anything big. Also who wants to spend money on a nice GP40 or a 6 axle engine if the curves are too tights and/or they don't serve enough industries that can pay for the maintainance and fuel of the engine. Disposible alcos and old SWs as well as old B or U ge units are easier and so cheaper to come by.

Actually, what I was referring to was that many short lines are buying nicer power and putting work into it and thus having the benefit of decent engines for less money. This is showing as many short lines get into GP38s and GP40s. It is a lot cheaper to buy these newer units and get a new main generator or do some work on the power packs than it is to nursemaid the GP9s and GP10s. Also, GP40s and most 4 axles have no problems with tight curvature except as to the really tight stuff that requires switchers anyhow...

LC

[Randy Stahl]

Quantum Electronics is working up a bolt on adhesion system to modernize GP30 and GP35 exitation systems. The cost of these add on is around 30k and I think I can get all the gp35s I want for around 25k each. Of course they will have the 567c block 645 power packs and rebalenced cam counterweights. I'm still money ahead!!!!! 55k each!!!!
Randy

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

Quantum Electronics is working up a bolt on adhesion system to modernize GP30 and GP35 exitation systems. The cost of these add on is around 30k and I think I can get all the gp35s I want for around 25k each. Of course they will have the 567c block 645 power packs and rebalenced cam counterweights. I'm still money ahead!!!!! 55k each!!!!
Randy

Not that many of the old GP35s left that I know of. BAR/CDAC had a bunch, a few floating around elsewhere (ex-WC?) But a lot have been cut up. Likewise with the GP30s. There are adehsion systems available for GP35s already. The BAR 200 series units owned by RESIDCO in Chicago and offered for sale or lease as GP38-3s are GP35s upgraded with adhesion control.

LC

[Anonymous]

Since I am in the desert and theres plenty of sunlight i would Electrfy the operation and Use solar panels to power the Catnany[8D]

[Anonymous]

Uhhh, sun gettin' to ya? I think its "catenary", unless you're talking about a babysitter for your Tabby...

LC

[Anonymous]

Oh, it occured to me there was another big thing I left out of my analysis above. I assumed you would have one fairly large non-hump yard and a locomotive and car shop at or near the KC end of your property. The western end wouldn't make as much sense, costs are much higher and regulation worse on the left hand coast. This would also be a good spot for 1,000 mile inspections. Locomotives would be circulated through the shop for 92 day inspections and other major maintenance inspections and major repairs. Minor repairs would be handled by a block truck.

LC