Also, why (as noted in the latest issue of Trains) would regulations in Canada not require a buffer car on unit tank trains? Apparently if its not a unit train a buffer car is required.
I think they prefer something with some weight, so an empty car wouldn't do the job.
One must recall that an empty tank car isn't empty until it's been cleaned.
As far as buffer cars - I think it's five from the locomotive on a manifest freight.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Sure, if it's an empty corn syrup car.
For a unit ethanol or oil train, no you can't use a residue empty ethanol or oil car. For empty residue tank cars that have restricted placement, one restriction is that it can't be next to an engine, working or not. So a shut down/dead engine isn't a buffer either.
Jeff
After they moved the Oil Can loading terminal from Bakersfield to Mojave the cars were placarded for flammable liquid (amazingly they previously carried no placards). Once they did were placarded they had tank cars filled with water for the buffers.
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
Filling the cars with water or other such ballast would be doable. I'd make mighty sure that they were able to be distinguished from the revenue cars by something other than (lack of) a hunk of paper in the placard holder, though. UP has used old tank cars as scale monitor cars; they have some sort of weight in them.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
I see unit oil trains without buffer cars here all the time... they appear to be loaded as far as I can tell.
Buffer cars do not have to be loaded, an empty covered hopper will suffice. I've used empty auto racks as well if they're around. Usually one at each end in a unit train. Junk trains cannot have any placarded cars nearer than the head 6th car.
tree68 I think they prefer something with some weight, so an empty car wouldn't do the job. One must recall that an empty tank car isn't empty until it's been cleaned. As far as buffer cars - I think it's five from the locomotive on a manifest freight.
On the trains through here, Particularly, the placcarded tank trains, BNSF seems to prefer some of the'older' covered hopper cars as 'buffers'. For some time, they appeared to be stenciled clearly on their sides that they were 'Company loaded/Buffers'- sand seemed to be the comodity they used?
Lately, those cars used as buffer cars are still about the same age, covered hoppers. The lettering seems to be less evident, as previously was indicated/senciled on them. Recently, it seems that rather than in all 'solid- type' trains (ie: placcarded, tanks)-- ( quite a few tanker cars are incorporated, and grouped into 'lower-classed' merchandise trains(?)
Not sure if this is specifically related to the way a specific destination would have classified that train; or is it an effort to get over the lower track speeds required/mandated(?) for a solid train, haz-mat movement(?)
ALL:
The BNSF "buffer" cars are old pressurized covered hopper cars and have an amount of sand (don't know the exact weight) to keep them on the rail as an empty buffer car would not be good to use. Also, they are in a "company service" series of numbers to satisify a regulation that I have forgotten about. When I was a car distributor for the BN, had to use either retired cars or company service cars for storage or special use.
Ed Burns
Kielbasa Buffer cars do not have to be loaded, an empty covered hopper will suffice. I've used empty auto racks as well if they're around. Usually one at each end in a unit train. Junk trains cannot have any placarded cars nearer than the head 6th car.
I have a manifest train. Here is the consist. two engines / 2 box cars non-hazmat loads / 20 tank cars ethanol (dangerous on the train list) / 1 box car non-hazmat load / 5 tank cars loads of inhalation hazard (poison gas zone A on the train list)*. A total of Two engines and 28 (3 non-hazmat, 25 hazmat) cars. Is this train legal to go? Why or why not? If not, how would you fix it?
*Note. I'm using the UP hazmat instructions. Ed B provided a copy in a previous discussion. Go to http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/107745.aspx and scroll down.
23 17 46 11
UP rules are so strange.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/107745.aspx
Maybe heated up now?
Or not. ¿Qué pasa?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
jeffhergert Kielbasa Buffer cars do not have to be loaded, an empty covered hopper will suffice. I've used empty auto racks as well if they're around. Usually one at each end in a unit train. Junk trains cannot have any placarded cars nearer than the head 6th car. I have a manifest train. Here is the consist. two engines / 2 box cars non-hazmat loads / 20 tank cars ethanol (dangerous on the train list) / 1 box car non-hazmat load / 5 tank cars loads of inhalation hazard (poison gas zone A on the train list)*. A total of Two engines and 28 (3 non-hazmat, 25 hazmat) cars. Is this train legal to go? Why or why not? If not, how would you fix it? *Note. I'm using the UP hazmat instructions. Ed B provided a copy in a previous discussion. Go to http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/107745.aspx and scroll down. Jeff
According to NS rules, and UP it looks like, it should be ok because train length does not allow for the 5 buffer cars on the head end. Each block of hazmat will be separated by a non placarded car as well.
There was something like "FILLED WITH WATER" prominently on the sides of the tank cars. I have not scanned my pictures from back then, so it may take a while to dig them up.
Yes, since a TIH load requires a buffer it and a flammable load
Yes, my example is legal to go as is. The point being is that 5 buffer cars between the engine and first hazmat that can't be nearer than the 6th car applies to ALL trains when the train length permits. If it doesn't use all available cars, with a minimum of one car. That's why unit trains get away with only one or two buffers between the engines and cars. That's all the train's consist (length) permit, not because they are unit trains.
jeffhergertThat's why unit trains get away with only one or two buffers between the engines and cars. That's all the train's consist (length) permit, not because they are unit trains. Jeff
Our rules say that if you don't have 5 non-hazmat cars, then the hazmat must be in the middle (with at least one buffer car on between the engine/occupied caboose, etc). Lot of the oil/ethanol unit trains we have use a buffer on the front and back so any helper (pusher/DPU) engines aren't against a hazmat car.
zugmann jeffhergert That's why unit trains get away with only one or two buffers between the engines and cars. That's all the train's consist (length) permit, not because they are unit trains. Jeff Our rules say that if you don't have 5 non-hazmat cars, then the hazmat must be in the middle (with at least one buffer car on between the engine/occupied caboose, etc). Lot of the oil/ethanol unit trains we have use a buffer on the front and back so any helper (pusher/DPU) engines aren't against a hazmat car.
jeffhergert That's why unit trains get away with only one or two buffers between the engines and cars. That's all the train's consist (length) permit, not because they are unit trains. Jeff
Sometimes one gets so used to seeing one thing, like a loaded, placcarded, unit tank train, with buffer cars fore and aft. They they send another train through; and us 'watchers' are given pause to try and figure out why it is so much different Recently, have seen a couple of unit tank trains come through without buffer cars, and had to remember that not all comodities shipped in liquid bulk require placcarding. The last one had some graphics on them for ADM,[ My guess is that they are food grade vegetable oils?]. And also for the (Animal) Feed ingredient trains, When they get through here, I've seen them have tankers behind the engines, without a buffer, With feed hoppers, between the tanks and engines, and the last ones through have them on the rear of the trains.
samfp1943 zugmann jeffhergert Our rules say that if you don't have 5 non-hazmat cars, then the hazmat must be in the middle (with at least one buffer car on between the engine/occupied caboose, etc). Lot of the oil/ethanol unit trains we have use a buffer on the front and back so any helper (pusher/DPU) engines aren't against a hazmat car. Sometimes one gets so used to seeing one thing, like a loaded, placcarded, unit tank train, with buffer cars fore and aft. They they send another train through; and us 'watchers' are given pause to try and figure out why it is so much different Recently, have seen a couple of unit tank trains come through without buffer cars, and had to remember that not all comodities shipped in liquid bulk require placcarding. The last one had some graphics on them for ADM,[ My guess is that they are food grade vegetable oils?]. And also for the (Animal) Feed ingredient trains, When they get through here, I've seen them have tankers behind the engines, without a buffer, With feed hoppers, between the tanks and engines, and the last ones through have them on the rear of the trains.
zugmann jeffhergert Our rules say that if you don't have 5 non-hazmat cars, then the hazmat must be in the middle (with at least one buffer car on between the engine/occupied caboose, etc). Lot of the oil/ethanol unit trains we have use a buffer on the front and back so any helper (pusher/DPU) engines aren't against a hazmat car.
jeffhergert
Look for placards on the cars.
If there are placards on each tank car - there is HAZMAT that needs buffers. No Placards - NO HAZMAT and no need for buffers.
BaltACD samfp1943 zugmann jeffhergert Our rules say that if you don't have 5 non-hazmat cars, then the hazmat must be in the middle (with at least one buffer car on between the engine/occupied caboose, etc). Lot of the oil/ethanol unit trains we have use a buffer on the front and back so any helper (pusher/DPU) engines aren't against a hazmat car. Sometimes one gets so used to seeing one thing, like a loaded, placcarded, unit tank train, with buffer cars fore and aft. They they send another train through; and us 'watchers' are given pause to try and figure out why it is so much different Recently, have seen a couple of unit tank trains come through without buffer cars, and had to remember that not all comodities shipped in liquid bulk require placcarding. The last one had some graphics on them for ADM,[ My guess is that they are food grade vegetable oils?]. And also for the (Animal) Feed ingredient trains, When they get through here, I've seen them have tankers behind the engines, without a buffer, With feed hoppers, between the tanks and engines, and the last ones through have them on the rear of the trains. Look for placards on the cars. If there are placards on each tank car - there is HAZMAT that needs buffers. No Placards - NO HAZMAT and no need for buffers.
There are a few hazmat placards that have no restrictions. They can go next to an engine, even be used as a buffer car. Most likely you won't see them in a unit train, but possibly in a manifest.
Molten Sulphur - UN 2448, 3257 and most Class 9 products can be next to the engine as some specific ones have no marshaling restrictions.
As mentioned above, in Canada a buffer is not required on trains consisting of 100% placarded cars.
As well, in Canada only one buffer is required on any other train consisting of placarded cars.
You guys REALLY need to specify what country you're dealing with as rules and regulations are different. This way there won't be any confusion.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
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