Murphy Siding Geez! I'm an odd one, as I truly don’t watch television. It looks like I might have to start, just to see what I’ve been missing. By the way, did Gilligan ever get off that island?
Geez! I'm an odd one, as I truly don’t watch television. It looks like I might have to start, just to see what I’ve been missing. By the way, did Gilligan ever get off that island?
You can watch this one on-line. The link was provided a few posts back.
I don't usually watch broadcast TV - it's usually the movie channels, with occasional forays into the documentary stuff. I used to watch the Weather Channel a lot, but they've turned that into reality TV as well.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
To Murphy Siding:
"+1"
edblysard Bullet train only...like the French TGV. . . . If you are going to talk about PTC, talk about all aspects of PTC, both the pro and the cons…this program implied it was a existing and functioning technology that American railroads choose to ignore…. It contrast a passenger only rail line in Japan with freight railroading in North America…there is no comparison, there can’t be, they are two completely different operations, about the only thing they have in common is round wheels! . . .
. . . If you are going to talk about PTC, talk about all aspects of PTC, both the pro and the cons…this program implied it was a existing and functioning technology that American railroads choose to ignore….
It contrast a passenger only rail line in Japan with freight railroading in North America…there is no comparison, there can’t be, they are two completely different operations, about the only thing they have in common is round wheels! . . .
- PDN.
Sam, thanks for explaining to me how "everyone" thinks and what "everyone" wants. Hope you don't mind if I draw my own conclusiions.
As a retired educator, I have generally supported the public tv/radio programming of the past. It is hard to support them in the last several years. My only comment to the postings here: Has anyone contacted PBS? I did and am NOT holding my breath for a reply. My comment/concern to them was based on what tree68@0222171152 said. And that post was followed by RME giving a website to complain. I did. Did anyone else? It takes more than one to get any attention.
As I support financially the local public media outlets, I have let it be known my distaste for certain biased reporting. In conclusion: I can vividly recall in long ago past, their programings had healthy debate/presentations of an issue and when the program ended, I was in deep thought about the two views trying to decide where I stood on the issue. Healthy, unbiased, good reporting, is not seen today, hardly ANYWHERE. endmrw0224171353
I submitted the following to PBS via their http://help.pbs.org/support/home link.
I have always viewed NOVA programming as being fair and balanced in most cases. The program 'Why Trains Crash!' was anything but fair and balanced. The railroads of the US were dealt a UNFUNDED mandate to install a IDEA that had yet to have a product invented to comply with the intent of the IDEA, additionally that IDEA was to be implemented as a seamless safety product on the private property of multiple Class 1 railroad companies as well as governmentally underfunded rail commuter agencies. by December 31, 2015. No mention was made of the efforts of the railroads invent the safety product set standards so the devices could operate on all railroads in the US, fight through obstruction by the Federal Communications Commission to obtain the necessary radio bandwidth to make the system functional. No mention was made of what is required to install this equipment on the routes where it is required as well as installing the equipment on the locomotives and other equipment that will be operating on these territories and after the equipment is installed, the training that is required to have railroad personnel able to use it and the testing that must be done one the equipment is placed in operation to ensure that things actually work as intended and that any software or hardware bugs are identified and resolved. This program fell well below the standards I have come to expect from NOVA presentations over the years. Instead it came across as simple minded hatchet job on the integrity of all facets of the railroad industry, both freight and passenger, in the United States.
The railroads of the US were dealt a UNFUNDED mandate to install a IDEA that had yet to have a product invented to comply with the intent of the IDEA, additionally that IDEA was to be implemented as a seamless safety product on the private property of multiple Class 1 railroad companies as well as governmentally underfunded rail commuter agencies. by December 31, 2015.
No mention was made of the efforts of the railroads invent the safety product set standards so the devices could operate on all railroads in the US, fight through obstruction by the Federal Communications Commission to obtain the necessary radio bandwidth to make the system functional.
No mention was made of what is required to install this equipment on the routes where it is required as well as installing the equipment on the locomotives and other equipment that will be operating on these territories and after the equipment is installed, the training that is required to have railroad personnel able to use it and the testing that must be done one the equipment is placed in operation to ensure that things actually work as intended and that any software or hardware bugs are identified and resolved.
This program fell well below the standards I have come to expect from NOVA presentations over the years. Instead it came across as simple minded hatchet job on the integrity of all facets of the railroad industry, both freight and passenger, in the United States.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDI submitted the following to PBS...
Then they are got homesick for it and had a big trip back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANoXW7M5OCg
BaltACD I submitted the following to PBS via their http://help.pbs.org/support/home link. I have always viewed NOVA programming as being fair and balanced in most cases. The program 'Why Trains Crash!' was anything but fair and balanced. The railroads of the US were dealt a UNFUNDED mandate to install a IDEA that had yet to have a product invented to comply with the intent of the IDEA, additionally that IDEA was to be implemented as a seamless safety product on the private property of multiple Class 1 railroad companies as well as governmentally underfunded rail commuter agencies. by December 31, 2015. No mention was made of the efforts of the railroads invent the safety product set standards so the devices could operate on all railroads in the US, fight through obstruction by the Federal Communications Commission to obtain the necessary radio bandwidth to make the system functional. No mention was made of what is required to install this equipment on the routes where it is required as well as installing the equipment on the locomotives and other equipment that will be operating on these territories and after the equipment is installed, the training that is required to have railroad personnel able to use it and the testing that must be done one the equipment is placed in operation to ensure that things actually work as intended and that any software or hardware bugs are identified and resolved. This program fell well below the standards I have come to expect from NOVA presentations over the years. Instead it came across as simple minded hatchet job on the integrity of all facets of the railroad industry, both freight and passenger, in the United States.
Aha, the Gell-Mann Effect!
What is the Gell-Mann Effect, you ask, and what relationship does it have to the Nobel Laureate Caltech professor Murray Gell-Mann?
Nobel Laureate Caltech professor the late Richard Feynman of Shuttle Challenger Investigation fame had invited Dr. Gell-Mann to join him at Caltech, but after a while, some professional rivalries developed between the two physics giants. Stories emerged about what the two thought about each other, with Gell-Mann regarding Feynman as egocentric and eccentric (there is a gem of a video interview of Gell-Mann that has priceless insights into Feynman's theories about brushing your teeth and Gell-Mann getting an "inside" contrary view as they both went to the same "dental firm" -- we would call it a dental practice).
Feynman's take on Gell-Mann was basically that his colleague and one-time best friend was seriously naive, although Gell-Mann at least once called Feynman out on this subject. Anyway, the anecdote comes by way of the late novelist Michael Crichton.
Depending on the telling, it goes something like this. Professor Gell-Mann reads the newspaper tell about how a small but prosperous nation in the modern Middle East is mistreating people of an ethnic minority, and he exclaims, "That is terrible what they are doing over there, someone should put a stop to it!" He then flips to the Science section and reads a story about his field, high-energy physics and then complains, "They got every last 'fact' in this story backwards or wrong! Why couldn't they have checked with me first?"
The Gell-Mann Effect is that the good professor believes everything he reads in the newspaper as factual, especially on matters regarding that small but prosperous country in the Middle East. When he reads a newspaper article about something that he knows a great deal about, he sees that the newspaper's coverage is only very loosely connected to reality. Furthermore, and according to Dr. Feynman Dr. Gell-Mann doesn't see any connection between the accuracy of their treatment of international events, where he is reliant on the newspaper because he doesn't have personal knowledge of such matters, and their very bad coverage of something he indeed knows something about.
I had posted over in "Passengers" on the Nova show because the show was more passenger-train focused, but it didn't get as many responses on that other Trains Forum. I was waiting to see how people would react to this given that the topic of PTC and the 2015 deadline and the Amtrak accident had been discussed here in much more detail than offered in the PBS TV program.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Cotton Belt MP104 As a retired educator, I have generally supported the public tv/radio programming of the past. It is hard to support them in the last several years... ... I can vividly recall in long ago past, their programings had healthy debate/presentations of an issue and when the program ended, I was in deep thought about the two views trying to decide where I stood on the issue. Healthy, unbiased, good reporting, is not seen today, hardly ANYWHERE. endmrw0224171353
As a retired educator, I have generally supported the public tv/radio programming of the past. It is hard to support them in the last several years...
... I can vividly recall in long ago past, their programings had healthy debate/presentations of an issue and when the program ended, I was in deep thought about the two views trying to decide where I stood on the issue. Healthy, unbiased, good reporting, is not seen today, hardly ANYWHERE. endmrw0224171353
All is fluid in time. While you perceive that PBS has changed, you forget that you are no longer the person you were when you found what they broadcast to be much more palatable. I have begun to realize, myself, and late, that I think differently about things now. I'm more tolerant, and not the curmudgeon I used to be. Don't ask me how that can be as we'd both agree it usually goes the other way around.
Sorry, I have to disagree about PBS... I used to donate during the "Spring Festival" (the begging season for PBS) when they had on "Specials" created by the regular programs they air... "Home time", "This Old House", "Red Green", "Nova", "Nature", etc.
Have you seen any specials by those programs in recent years? I haven't.
They do still have specials for "Lawrence Welk", "Dr Who", and "Love of Quilting" but that is all I have seen recently. Only "Lawrence Welk" and "Dr. Who" have pried any cash out of my hands in the last 3 or 4 years.
And the programs they use to beg have nothing to do with the programming they are so famous for. Financial "wizards" and "Musical groups" seem to fill the airwaves, all of them seeming to be "wanna-be's" for fame and riches. All of them are just hawking their latest book or album, using PBS for free advertising.
Others are sub-minority groups pushing their far-out political agendas.
I can only assume these new Beggars are aproaching PBS, dangling money bags in their faces to get on the air. And PBS is so hardup for programs that they jump at the cash instead of checking out the hucksters intent and integrity.
And now they have both a "Spring" and a "Fall" Beg-a-thons, and instead of just a week (9 days actually including both weekends), they have a long (3 day) week end, and the next week it is a full 9 days, followed by yet another 3-day weekend a week later.
I now write letters to PBS, thanking them for the Spring and Fall Festivals, because it gives me a chance to watch the other channels to see the great programming they have on and I don't have to give up my cash to anybody. (It has not helped!)
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
A regret about the PBS report was that if current ATC cab signal had the approach signal to northbound Frankford display approach 60 the train 188 would have been slowed so no derailment. Amtrak's PTC ( ACSES ) was not needed although it would have been an additional backup.
blue streak 1A regret about the PBS report was that if current ATC cab signal had the approach signal to northbound Frankford display approach 60 the train 188 would have been slowed so no derailment. Amtrak's PTC ( ACSES ) was not needed although it would have been an additional backup.
I may be mistaken, but I don't believe Amtrak's ACSES that has been installed on the NEC is compatible with PTC that the other Class 1 carriers have created. ACSES will work well for Amtrak on the NEC, which has no through freight operation from any of the Class 1 carriers.
BaltACD blue streak 1 A regret about the PBS report was that if current ATC cab signal had the approach signal to northbound Frankford display approach 60 the train 188 would have been slowed so no derailment. Amtrak's PTC ( ACSES ) was not needed although it would have been an additional backup. I may be mistaken, but I don't believe Amtrak's ACSES that has been installed on the NEC is compatible with PTC that the other Class 1 carriers have created. ACSES will work well for Amtrak on the NEC, which has no through freight operation from any of the Class 1 carriers.
blue streak 1 A regret about the PBS report was that if current ATC cab signal had the approach signal to northbound Frankford display approach 60 the train 188 would have been slowed so no derailment. Amtrak's PTC ( ACSES ) was not needed although it would have been an additional backup.
If the NEC is Amtrak owned and is a (largely, mostly) intercity and commuter passenger railroad, what is the problem whether the Amtrak ACSES is not compatible with the PTC planned for the whole rest of everywhere in the U.S.? The NEC is then a non-interchanging mega transit system. And what was stopping Amtrak from putting their own variety of PTC on that high-speed line, and why was Train 188 not protected that way?
We may have addressed this question on the Forum here soon after this Amtrak accident had occurred, but the PBS TV show didn't address it at all. I suppose we could blame the Usual Suspects in Congress that a monetary request from Amtrak was denied (was it?), but you can't pin this one on the supposed "foot dragging" of the freight railroads?
Can I presume that Amtrak will require the freight operations that are still on the NEC will have ACSES also?
MidlandMike BaltACD blue streak 1 I may be mistaken, but I don't believe Amtrak's ACSES that has been installed on the NEC is compatible with PTC that the other Class 1 carriers have created. ACSES will work well for Amtrak on the NEC, which has no through freight operation from any of the Class 1 carriers. Can I presume that Amtrak will require the freight operations that are still on the NEC will have ACSES also?
BaltACD blue streak 1 I may be mistaken, but I don't believe Amtrak's ACSES that has been installed on the NEC is compatible with PTC that the other Class 1 carriers have created. ACSES will work well for Amtrak on the NEC, which has no through freight operation from any of the Class 1 carriers.
blue streak 1
There are waivers that may be allowed - I don't know what the requirements are, if or where they may be requested. It's all a FRA case.
The freight traffic on the NEC that does exist is scheduled to operate for the most part when Amtrak itself is not operating.
BaltACD There are waivers that may be allowed - I don't know what the requirements are, if or where they may be requested. It's all a FRA case. The freight traffic on the NEC that does exist is scheduled to operate for the most part when Amtrak itself is not operating.
After the Gunpow fatal accident I can't imagine there will be waivers.
I've never been offended by PBS, but as a conservative, I don't usually have to listen to my local NPR station for long before turning it off in annoyance.
Maybe I'm happily watching the wrong shows, but I love it when they do historical documentaries on regional history and am glad they're there a few times a year when something catches my eye in the program guide.
And they put together the first King Family holiday special in decades, so they can't be all bad. Those were a bastion of family friendly television back in the 1960's and early 1970's before tv changed with people like Norman Lear and the infamous "rural purge" on CBS of every show with a tree in it.
BaltACDNothing was stated about there NOT BEING a PTC product in existance when the mandate was put into law in 2008. Nothing was stated that the product had to be designed from scratch to be operatable on all carriers and lines that it is required to be installed on. Nothing was stated about the OBSTRUCTION of the Washington bureauacy in obtaining radio spectrum for the system to operate upon. Nothing was stated about the hundreds of millions of man hours and billions of dollars "the foot dragging" railroads had invested in trying to meet the 12/31/15 deadline. Nothing was stated about suppliers having to develop and produce required products for the designed system to operate.
And nothing was said about what was given up to channel all that money towards satisfying the PTC mandate.
The money didn't come out of thin air. Every dollar spent could've been spent elsewhere, providing different benefits.
I watched this online. I enjoyed it for the photography part of it. The show struck me like any documentary you might watch. They seem to start with a premise, then build up a case to support it. That's certainly not an objective way to do a good program but that's the accepted standard. A few items did catch my attention:They said that PTC had "been in development for decades". Then they made it sound like the railroads only got serious about it when forced by the government.They said that tank cars carrying crude oil are so much harder on tracks and equipment because they weigh more. Really? That's a new one. Whic weighs more, a pound of oil or a pound of corn?If you're going to do computer grapics of a train-in this case the Laq Magantec train- at least do a tiny bit of homework about what something like that may look like. They showed a train with a lead locomotive, then a caboose, two or tree more locomotives and then the freight cars.The apples and oranges comparison between American and Japanese trains. I can't wait to watch the program covering what it would cost to make our railroad system (apples) be just like the one they think is perfect in Japan (oranges). I don't think it would cost billions. I think it would cost trillions.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Leo_Ames And nothing was said about what was given up to channel all that money towards satisfying the PTC mandate. The money didn't come out of thin air. Every dollar spent could've been spent elsewhere, providing different benefits.
Murphy Siding A few items did catch my attention:They said that PTC had "been in development for decades". Then they made it sound like the railroads only got serious about it when forced by the government.
A few items did catch my attention:They said that PTC had "been in development for decades". Then they made it sound like the railroads only got serious about it when forced by the government.
We've had ATS (automatic train stop) for decades. Cab signals have been around close to 100 years. Yet many mainlines only have waysides (if that). So how serious they were before the gov't forced their hand? Yeah, yeah, costs and all that - but as I said about a dozen times before on here: pay now or pay later. But you will pay.
Murphy Siding They said that tank cars carrying crude oil are so much harder on tracks and equipment because they weigh more. Really? That's a new one. Whic weighs more, a pound of oil or a pound of corn?
Oil trains around here run 12-16,000 tons. They are heavy. There was a lot of track work around here when the oil trains started running - these were lines that didn't normnally have heavy trains like coal drags. [/quote]
Murphy Siding If you're going to do computer grapics of a train-in this case the Laq Magantec train- at least do a tiny bit of homework about what something like that may look like. They showed a train with a lead locomotive, then a caboose, two or tree more locomotives and then the freight cars.
If I remember right - that train did have a RCO-control caboose in the consist.
Murphy Siding The apples and oranges comparison between American and Japanese trains. I can't wait to watch the program covering what it would cost to make our railroad system (apples) be just like the one they think is perfect in Japan (oranges). I don't think it would cost billions. I think it would cost trillions.
We don't have to worry about giant robot attacks like Japan, either.
PS. I didn't get around to watching the show yet. Too many robot shows vying for my limited time.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
They made it sound like the cars themselves were heavier on the crude oil trains.
MidlandMike BaltACD There are waivers that may be allowed - I don't know what the requirements are, if or where they may be requested. It's all a FRA case. The freight traffic on the NEC that does exist is scheduled to operate for the most part when Amtrak itself is not operating. After the Gunpow fatal accident I can't imagine there will be waivers.
I believe that waivers for PTC can be obtained by class 2/3 carriers that use a class 1 PTC equipped line for short (up to 20 miles I think) distances to access disconnected trackage. I think one of the stipulations is for an absolute block for such movements. I wouldn't see any reason they couldn't do it for limited moves on the NEC.
Jeff
Murphy Siding They made it sound like the cars themselves were heavier on the crude oil trains.
Cars are loaded to the standard maximum weight of 268,000 pounds.
Tracks that routinely handle grain trains and/or coal trains, ore trains and similar bulk commodity trains support cars with a similar gross weight to oil trains.
Not all lines have been upgraded to be able to handle max loaded bulk commodity trains.
My understanding is that US Class 1's route their oil trains over trackage that is built to handle the heaviest of bulk commodity trains. What is done in other countries is unknown.
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