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A "what if" topic, suppose the NYO&W had held on 19 more years

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Posted by The Ferro Kid on Sunday, May 22, 2016 1:54 PM

The leased steam option is amusing, if only for its effect on what must have been deferred-maintenance track on which the diesels would have been trodding much more easily.

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Posted by NorthWest on Sunday, May 22, 2016 10:20 PM

The OW was noted for extremely sharp curves, and diesels aided in slowing wheel wear greatly. A return to steam would have been disasterous.

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Posted by Paul3 on Monday, May 23, 2016 12:13 AM

About the only hope that the NYO&W had was a merger with the New Haven.  This was kicked around by both railroads for a while, but the NH eventually saw that the future of the O&W was too bleak to survive.  Heck, their own wasn't much better (declaring bankruptcy in 1961).  But it is interesting to think of the O&W merged with the NH back in, say, the 1920's or pre-WWI back when the NH had a lot money and power.  In fact, I have an old "NYNH&H Operated & Controlled Lines" map showing the NYO&W as part of the NH system.

Paul A. Cutler III

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Posted by 54light15 on Monday, May 23, 2016 9:20 AM

When I was first hired as a boiler inspector for the Hartford Steam Boiler Inspection and Insurance Company in 1991, part of my territory was Sullivan county and you could see bits of roadbed of the O & W almost anywhere. The guy training me would show me some of it. I finally asked him, "If the railroad still existed, would you use it?" He said "No, I would drive." I had to tell him to give it a rest with the nostalgia.

Regarding the "Borscht Belt" and its resulting decline in passenger traffic, a guy in that area said that they invented air conditoning and that was the end of the Catskills. Naturally Route 17 and later the Thruway didn't help much. There were still abandoned resort complexes here and there in 1991-1995 when I worked in that area. Some were made into prison halfway houses and so forth. One in Loch Sheldrake became a retreat for the Maharishi, the guy the Beatles hung out with. The boiler room in Brown's Hotel, (affiliated with Jerry Lewis) was the absolute worst I have ever seen. They shut down shortly after. 

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Posted by wanswheel on Monday, May 23, 2016 9:34 AM

Paul3

About the only hope that the NYO&W had was a merger with the New Haven.  This was kicked around by both railroads for a while, but the NH eventually saw that the future of the O&W was too bleak to survive.  Heck, their own wasn't much better (declaring bankruptcy in 1961).  But it is interesting to think of the O&W merged with the NH back in, say, the 1920's or pre-WWI back when the NH had a lot money and power.  In fact, I have an old "NYNH&H Operated & Controlled Lines" map showing the NYO&W as part of the NH system.

Paul A. Cutler III

 

 

1991 National Park Service study of DL&W line from Scranton to Slateford Junction

https://archive.org/stream/historicresource00clem#page/n1/mode/2up

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Posted by wanswheel on Monday, May 23, 2016 2:34 PM
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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Monday, May 23, 2016 8:32 PM

54light15
When I was first hired as a boiler inspector for the Hartford Steam Boiler Inspection and Insurance Company in 1991, part of my territory was Sullivan county and you could see bits of roadbed of the O & W almost anywhere. The guy training me would show me some of it. I finally asked him, "If the railroad still existed, would you use it?" He said "No, I would drive." I had to tell him to give it a rest with the nostalgia.

Regarding the "Borscht Belt" and its resulting decline in passenger traffic, a guy in that area said that they invented air conditoning and that was the end of the Catskills. Naturally Route 17 and later the Thruway didn't help much. . . . [snipped - PDN]

Then you'll perhaps be amused by this quote from the House report on page 3 of Zirn case (above, emphasis added - PDN): 

"In view of the necessity of readily financing purchases of equipment at a time when the development of the transportation art is providing new forms of equipment, particularly in the passenger field, of which, in interests of efficiency and economy, the carriers should be able to avail themselves, and because after a depression the carriers are usually required to make large expenditures for equipment in order to accommodate the improved traffic, your committee is of the opinion that any doubt should be removed with reference to the validity of the equipment trust as a means of financing equipment purchases."

That's a heckuva 'run-on' sentence, too !

- Paul North. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by CandOforprogress2 on Monday, May 23, 2016 8:43 PM
Bridge Line between major east-west lines? Kinda like the D&H which had few online custumers.
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Posted by Miningman on Monday, May 23, 2016 9:28 PM

Fascinating Wanswheel!...So what stopped the NYC from purchasing the O&W? Let's suppose for a moment that purchase actually occurred...it may have been abandoned still as a branch but likely it survives in some form to Penn Centrail, maybe even Conrail but likely no further. It's all very interesting in any regard. 

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, May 23, 2016 9:41 PM

Snippets remain.  I believe some O&W track may still be active in Oswego and Rome, NY.

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Posted by wanswheel on Tuesday, May 24, 2016 1:31 AM

Miningman

So what stopped the NYC from purchasing the O&W?

Thanks for asking, I wondered what, too. NY Public Service Commission.

 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, May 24, 2016 7:06 AM

Considering the date, I'm sure that anti-trust concerns were a major reason for the attempt of NYC&HR to purchase an interest in NYO&W to be denied.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by RME on Tuesday, May 24, 2016 8:32 AM

Leads me to wonder if there was any connection between the New Yorkers doing this and the Massachusetts people refusing connections for the Hampden Railroad, another 'key' piece of strategy shut down essentially by political action at around this time.

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Posted by 54light15 on Tuesday, May 24, 2016 8:33 AM

The O & W station and I believe it was the corporate headquarters did exist in Middletown, N.Y. in 1995 when I was last there. There was active Conrail track alongside it, not sure how long that line was or what it served but I would see trains on it.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Tuesday, May 24, 2016 7:55 PM

The O&W Middletown station/headquarters is still there, but Google Earth shows the damage to the north tower from a fire.  Two miles of former O&W track are still there from the NS/MNRR connection to the M&NJ yard in Middletown.

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Posted by wanswheel on Thursday, May 26, 2016 1:42 PM

Mike, in case anybody missed it the first time...

MidlandMike

I don't know if you could consider it an architectural gem, but the NYO&W Middletown station is historic.  It had some fire damage to the north end of the station about 10 years ago.  A health clinic is trying to get a grant to rehab it.

 

Excerpt from Engineering News, December 29, 1892

Railway Station at Middletown, N.Y.

The elevation and plan here given show the railway station now under construction at Middletown, N.Y. by the New York, Ontario & Western R.R. Co. from the plans of Mr. Bradford L. Gilbert of New York.

The building is 174 ft. long and 44 ft. wide with a rear extension of 30 ft. in length for kitchen, an extensive awning, an independent express and trainmen's room at the north end and a port-cochere. On the first floor are the general waiting room, woman's waiting room, restaurant, ticket office, toilet-room and other rooms for baggage and trainmen. The general waiting room is 30 x 30 ft. and both this and the woman's room are finished with a red oak wainscoting 12 ft. high; all above this and the ceiling is finished in white spruce. The floors in these two rooms are made of red oak and all other floors of Georgia pine. The restaurant is 90 ft. long by 30 ft. wide with news and cigar stands. There are open fires in this and in the waiting rooms in addition to the regular steam heating appliances.

The second floor is devoted to the railway offices including rooms for the chief and assistant engineers, superintendent of motive power, train despatcher, roadmaster and various clerks and draftsmen. All these rooms are well lighted and heated and in both the second and third stories fire proof vaults of brick and iron are provided for the storage of valuable records.

http://www.nps.gov/nr/feature/places/14000129.htm

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