Hi, If a train needs 4 locomotives for its journey and the locomotives are spread throughout the train (i.e. 2 locos on head end, 1 in the middle and 1 on rear) would this train tend to stay that way for the whole trip? I am assuming that helpers are added and subtracted in areas of grades (i.e. Johnstown - Altoona). I just saw a big coal train go through Rochelle with 3 locos, 2 on the point and 1 on the rear and was wondering if the hind end is a helper that will be taken off or if the unit is just distributed power that will remain there for the entre journey. Thanks for any info you can give me.
Manned helpers are becoming less common. The situation you saw at Rochelle is probably DP in use through the entire trip since there don't seem to be any grades requiring a helper in the area.
pajrr Hi, If a train needs 4 locomotives for its journey and the locomotives are spread throughout the train (i.e. 2 locos on head end, 1 in the middle and 1 on rear) would this train tend to stay that way for the whole trip? I am assuming that helpers are added and subtracted in areas of grades (i.e. Johnstown - Altoona). I just saw a big coal train go through Rochelle with 3 locos, 2 on the point and 1 on the rear and was wondering if the hind end is a helper that will be taken off or if the unit is just distributed power that will remain there for the entre journey. Thanks for any info you can give me.
The Western carriers tend to use Distributed Power and the locomotives will stay in place for the duration of the trip.
Eastern carriers tend to use manned helpers, although, they are testing and using Distributed Power in selected areas. Helpers are attached and detached where necessary. When Distributed Power is used, it stays with the train for the duration of the trip.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Another way to think about this is how long and how steep is the steepest grade the train will encounter, compared to the whole trip, and how fast does the train need to get over the road.
DP works great if there is no really steep grade in an otherwise 1% or less route and if the train needs to keep more than drag speed over that route. A Los Angeles to Chicago stack train will see 2.2% in and out of LA basin. The rest of the route is about 1%. Running DP through makes sense because the train needs to maintain good speed across the rest of the route.
The ruling grade on the east slope above Altoona is 1.8% or so, but is only a few miles long. Here it makes more sense (that is minimizes engine miles and engine fleet) to use helpers only for the few miles they are really needed.
In steam days there was a strong tendency to either using bigger engines on steeper grades or helpers as necessary, and drag along everywhere else. Today the trend is toward DP and away from helpers, and use the extra power for more speed and better dynamic braking capability all over, but especially on the occassional steep downgrade.
The different responses Balt mentioned is due to generally short bad grades in the east.
Mac
BNSF's Transcon Mainline has tough grades all the way from San Bernardino to at least Riordan, AZ. In addition to the climb out of the LA Basin, you have Ash Hill and Goff's Hill with grades of just under 2% followed by descents of over 2% to get to Needles, CA. Then you have 2 long tough slogs to climb from the Colorado River bridge at Topock, AZ at 475' asl(Above Sea Level) to Riordan, AZ at 7,025' asl. The two grades Topock to Kingman, and Williams Jct. to Riordan, AZ both feature sustained grades of 1.43%
Beaulieu,
You obviously know the former Santa Fe main better than I do, and your details illustrate why DP rather than helpers. I would not be surprised to find one or two units come off/go on somewhere around Belen.
It is all about grades, horespower and speed.
beaulieuAsh Hill and Goff's Hill with grades of just under 2% followed by descents of over 2% to get to Needles, CA.
I had it in my head that Riordan was just east of Flagstaff, AZ, but it is just west of Flagstaff and the summit elevation is 7,350' asl.
Timz has the railroad been realigned over Ash and Goff's Hill? As I remember it there are separate tracks used by Eastbounds and Westbounds, with descending trains using the older and steeper grades, though Bi-directional CTC allows DS discretion.
Please keep in mind that Distributed Power isn't only about grades. (Help me out here, Jeff!) It's about better train handling and slack control, and faster brake applications (making longer trains safer). I don't know of too many long, pusher-requiring grades between Proviso and North Platte, but DP is very common between those points.It used to be that one could tell when the end of a freight train was approaching by the banging in the couplers--a slight level adjustment where the drawbar forces were about equal. That doesn't happen with DP--you know the end of the train by the sound of an approaching locomotive!Balt, I hope CSX will be using DP on those monster freight trains I keep hearing about. Unlike nearly everyone else, I'm thrilled at the prospect of three-miles-plus of slowly-moving freight cars (for research purposes, of course!).
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
I can't say as I've seen any distributed power on the CSX Water Level Route (Chicago Line), bit it's sounding like that might change...
Then, again, I'm not always there, so it may have already. I'm pretty sure I've hear the defect detector near Utica max out at least once.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
We have not seen any DPU on CSX's A&WP sub from LaGrange, Ga - ATL. The trains are longer but maybe NS will not allow DPU on their trackage that CSX has to traverse from East Point - downtown ATL. As well NS may be concerned about DPU crossings its Piedmont division west of ATL Amtrak station at Howell CP diamonds.
As it is CSX trains often block the crossing as it is the yard lead for CSX's Tilford yard. A hint of those delays can be seen by the number of times Amtrak's Crescent is delayed between ATL and Anniston. Oltmann can probably give us some info on how much this CP is blocked.
Believe that there was a trains blog mentioning this CP definitely needs flyovers.
blue streak 1 We have not seen any DPU on CSX's A&WP sub from LaGrange, Ga - ATL. The trains are longer but maybe NS will not allow DPU on their trackage that CSX has to traverse from East Point - downtown ATL. As well NS may be concerned about DPU crossings its Piedmont division west of ATL Amtrak station at Howell CP diamonds. As it is CSX trains often block the crossing as it is the yard lead for CSX's Tilford yard. A hint of those delays can be seen by the number of times Amtrak's Crescent is delayed between ATL and Anniston. Oltmann can probably give us some info on how much this CP is blocked. Believe that there was a trains blog mentioning this CP definitely needs flyovers.
CSX is testing DPU on selected territories and mostly on bulk commodity trains.
I've been wondering about the control of DPU's. From what I've read, the control can be set up to have the DPU's slave to the lead units or can be contolled independently. If this is so, can the mid-train DPU's be controlled separately from the rear pushers? If this is so, how many sets can be controlled independently?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Paul of CovingtonIf this is so, can the mid-train DPU's be controlled separately from the rear pushers?
I was wondering the same thing...
You can have up to 4 remote consists in a train. I've never had a train that had two (or more) remote consists, only trains with a lead and either mid-train or rear consist. From what I understand, each remote consist can be handled separately from the others.
Jeff
jeffhergert You can have up to 4 remote consists in a train. I've never had a train that had two (or more) remote consists, only trains with a lead and either mid-train or rear consist. From what I understand, each remote consist can be handled separately from the others. Jeff
The 18K foot intermodal train that UP operated from Texas to California several years ago had 3 DP set ups in the train. 1st DP was about 6K feet deep, 2nd was about 12K feet deep, 3rd was on the rear of the train, if I remember the video correctly.
CShaveRR Balt, I hope CSX will be using DP on those monster freight trains I keep hearing about. Unlike nearly everyone else, I'm thrilled at the prospect of three-miles-plus of slowly-moving freight cars (for research purposes, of course!).
Balt, I hope CSX will be using DP on those monster freight trains I keep hearing about. Unlike nearly everyone else, I'm thrilled at the prospect of three-miles-plus of slowly-moving freight cars (for research purposes, of course!).
Just remember while you're enjoying these longer trains, that there are folks losing their jobs and livihood being furloughed because CSX is needing less crews to run these longer trains. So just keep on enjoying them while folks are having to find new jobs because of them.
jeffhergertYou can have up to 4 remote consists in a train. I've never had a train that had two (or more) remote consists, only trains with a lead and either mid-train or rear consist. From what I understand, each remote consist can be handled separately from the others.
(*4 remotes x 2 hands each = 8 hands needed) No offense intended, Jeff - that would seem to be a very busy responsibility at a grade transition, for example. Would it be ?
- Paul North.
To rocklymidlandrr - So let's be inefficient on purpose so costs go up and more traffic moves to trucks.
AndrewDickey To rocklymidlandrr - So let's be inefficient on purpose so costs go up and more traffic moves to trucks.
Before DP powered trains they were more effiecient than trucks, and they still are afterwards. Only difference is now the trains are longer, harder to fix when problems arise, and use a crew or two less a month. Kinda hard to see the "efficiency" when it takes 8 hours to double/triple/quadruple a train out of the yard and theres still 200 miles of railroad to cover to get to your destination.
AndrewDickey is starting to sound like an uninformed company man.
rockymidlandrr AndrewDickey To rocklymidlandrr - So let's be inefficient on purpose so costs go up and more traffic moves to trucks. Before DP powered trains they were more effiecient than trucks, and they still are afterwards. Only difference is now the trains are longer, harder to fix when problems arise, and use a crew or two less a month. Kinda hard to see the "efficiency" when it takes 8 hours to double/triple/quadruple a train out of the yard and theres still 200 miles of railroad to cover to get to your destination. AndrewDickey is starting to sound like an uninformed company man.
A friend's husband is a hostler for UP in KC East Bowl yards,but sometimes he has to go on the main to help push the train over the summit near Lee's Summit. When they are over the grade, he cuts off and returns to East Bowl.
Sunnyland A friend's husband is a hostler for UP in KC East Bowl yards,but sometimes he has to go on the main to help push the train over the summit near Lee's Summit. When they are over the grade, he cuts off and returns to East Bowl.
Manned helper service where the tonnage ratings aren't quite right for the road train!
In many locations the tonnage ratings for power don't tell the whole story. The next part of the story is the length of the train that is hauling the tonnage. In many cases a short train will have all it's tonnage on the worst part of the grade and stall, while a longer train will only have part of its train on the worst part of the grade at any point in time an make the grade easily.
BaltACDIn many locations the tonnage ratings for power don't tell the whole story. The next part of the story is the length of the train that is hauling the tonnage.
Next part of the story is that the ratings assume the engines are as good as they were the day they left the factory floor. they don't realize a 20 year old -9 may not be able to pull the same as it did back in the 90s.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann BaltACD Next part of the story is that the ratings assume the engines are as good as they were the day they left the factory floor. they don't realize a 20 year old -9 may not be able to pull the same as it did back in the 90s.
BaltACD
And the fact that the ratings are oriented toward what tonnage trains can keep moving just above minimum continuious speed through the territory - not what tonnage the engines can get started in the territory of the ruling grade.
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