Mudchicken,
Oh, sure, I knew that ATS wasn't usually used on freight trains. I think the top speed for the very fastest freights (The Super C excepted) on the Santa Fe was 70MPH, so what would be the point of using ATS?
I was just trying to show that the line was made faster than the southern line due to its arrow-straight trajectory and ATS (for varnish, that is). I think also that the Super C was allowed to go 90.
However, even this cannot be the complete explanation as you pointed out. I still think the north line has potential but what I think doesn't really matter. It's what the state and federal politicians and to some degree the railroad thinks.
Like I said once before, I'd just LOVE to revisit this thread (if I can find it) five years from now. I strongly suspect we will know more at that time.
Regards,
FMC
What if the potential isn't needed? Here's a good example--Conrail had three very good NYC-Chicago mainlines (PRR-NYC-EL). All had their advantages and disadvantages. The problem was that they didn't have enough traffic to run all three efficiently. The first to go was the EL. Next, the PRR west of Alliance. If track can't be utilized fully, why use it at all?
BackshopWhat if the potential isn't needed?
That not meant to suggest that some lines don't have relatively less value in this respect than others. Bitter though I am about the CASO, it was never going to serve its valuable purpose as a high-speed link 'ever any more'. Likewise, the Tennessee Pass route, or (to bring in the other topic) the Milwaukee Pacific Coast Extension have much more value as bargaining chips than practical, competitive transportation routes (especially in ttrraaffiicc's future where autonomous-truck operations sets service and cost floors).
Any speed benefit from going over Raton does not factor into any practical modern freight paradigm, and arguably it never really did. On the other hand, peak 4% gets leveraged really, really fast with big PSR bridge consists. Meanwhile I doubt if Amtrak would achieve meaningful customer satisfaction by increasing speed there, either, particularly if sleeper comfort were considered.
That is part of what you are seeing now.
York Canyon Distict (at French / Coal mines, part of earlier Dawson RR (SP))-GONE
Montana de Fibre - Fiberboard & Plywood Mill (north of Las Vegas) GONE
Santa Fe Branch Traffic at Lamy (Building Material & Beer) GONE
Gypsum/Wallboard traffic at Galisteo, NM GONE
Manufactured Housing plant at Domingo NM - GONE
Notice a trend?
(The double & triple tracking of the southern transcon made the northern transcon redundant...Similar to what happened to the KP & MP vs the UP transcon after the traffic slump here in CO and KS (without the passenger train issue....Amtrak here is now 79MPH and ATS inductors are vanishing.)
Overmod Bitter though I am about the CASO, it was never going to serve its valuable purpose as a high-speed link 'ever any more'.
Bitter though I am about the CASO, it was never going to serve its valuable purpose as a high-speed link 'ever any more'.
mudchicken .....Wonder if BogieEngineer was ever with the test trains between La Junta and Trinidad when they were given absolute blocks and allowed to let fly..
.....Wonder if BogieEngineer was ever with the test trains between La Junta and Trinidad when they were given absolute blocks and allowed to let fly..
bogie_engineer mudchicken .....Wonder if BogieEngineer was ever with the test trains between La Junta and Trinidad when they were given absolute blocks and allowed to let fly.. I was not, all the testing in Colorado I was associated with was radial truck development and I never rode the test train between the test center and Trinidad. I will say testing on Raton is one of my best memories, the crews were great, the RR always gave us a 5 man crew so at least one did the daily cooking. IIRC, the trainmaster in Raton was Glen Powers at the time and he was very accomodating. Our engineer was a guy name Mike who was a preacher in Raton and our conductor Gary had some great stories. The fireman was a guy whose name I can't remember but he lived in Springer and took us golfing at Angelfire a couple of times on our days off. One of my all time favorite memories was my first trip there in Nov. 1984 where the local track guy, I think his name was Ralph Ponce, took several of us in his high rail truck riding in the back through the tunnel forward toward Raton, then in reverse at what seemed like 60 mph, probably much slower in reality. Dave
(Speaking of "blast", hopefully you missed Ralph declaring war on the beavers )
Fred M Cain Your explanation that the only reason that the Santa Fe ran all but one of their passenger trains on the north line because they wanted to have them serve the Santa Fe/Albuquerque market is somewhat questionable. But just letting that go for a minute, it does not explain why the Santa Fe ran the Super C on the north line. I am guessing it's because the north line is faster.
Fred M Cain I question your assessment here for another reason. You have repeatedly gone on record as stating that the Milwaukee Road's line to Puget Sound was NOT the fastest nor the best route. But people involved with the Milwaukee road who were really in a position to know have repeatedly disputed that assessment. I don't want to mention any names here but I take So-and-so's word above yours.
Feel free to believe what you like, Fred, but I will debate anyone on the subject. The Milwaukee was simply the high-cost operation, and that's the reason it's not around. The ex-GN route from the Twin Cities to the Pacific Northwest for the most part fielded the fastest passenger, mail, and freight trains between Chicago and the Pacific Northwest on the least-costly route. But one thing about your choosing to believe "so-and-so:" He/she/it is telling you why things turned out the way they didn't. The Pacific Extension really really was mostly abandoned and the ex-GN route really really is still the primary freight and passenger route between the Upper Midwest and Pacific Northwest. Sometimes things really do happen for a reason.
http://trainweb.org/milwaukeemyths/
Beyond that, I acknowledge that both the Raton Pass line and the Milwaukee Pacific Extension are/were unique and therefore interesting railroads whose subsequent demise or downgrading are met with a lot of passion. But that doesn't shield them from operating realities.
Mark Meyer
mudchicken Vermont: At one point, the ATSF northern transcon was 3-4 hours faster (and one less crew district).
Vermont: At one point, the ATSF northern transcon was 3-4 hours faster (and one less crew district).
Could be. At one point. But not now. And this matters how?
mudchicken The line was very viable and had to be respected. I don't think the general managers, superintendents, trainmasters, RFE's, roadmasters and dispatchers were living a lie making the thing work. Some of the best real world training and professional railroad guidance I have experienced came from those people. (some of the worst experiences I had was from people off the southern transcon who had oversized egoes and/or were generally clueless and not resourcefull )
The line was very viable and had to be respected. I don't think the general managers, superintendents, trainmasters, RFE's, roadmasters and dispatchers were living a lie making the thing work. Some of the best real world training and professional railroad guidance I have experienced came from those people. (some of the worst experiences I had was from people off the southern transcon who had oversized egoes and/or were generally clueless and not resourcefull )
Obviously, you are very passionate about this route; you are also very biased. Having worked for the railroad for 40 years and being exposed to people from three mergers, I have learned to respect ALL railroaders for what they did on their railroad. And since the positions you mentioned - whether they were on the Northern route or Southern route - were all on the same railroad, and railroading being what it is, I know that these were not always the same people in these positions all the time; indeed, they were often moved about to gain experience, so your continuing (as you've stated this in previous threads) to suggest that the quality of personnel has anything to do with a route's viability is illogical. The reality is that the Raton Pass route is a high cost route with severe operating restrictions that were only exacerbated by the BNSF merger and upgrading of alternate routes. Being the inferior route in no way means the employees were inferior (nor superior).
mudchicken I do NOT agree with your over-generalized and pre-conceived view of the ATSF original northern transcon. It does sound eerilly similar to many others who never set foot out there and try to cherry pick the facts. (fortunately the John Reids of the world could see through the bs)
I do NOT agree with your over-generalized and pre-conceived view of the ATSF original northern transcon. It does sound eerilly similar to many others who never set foot out there and try to cherry pick the facts. (fortunately the John Reids of the world could see through the bs)
You might think you do, but the rest of use really don't know what John Reed would have thought of the North route vs. the South route as the South route has evolved into the railroad it is, and how the BN purchase of the ATSF resulted in directional running between Pueblo and Amarillo.
My view is hardly "pre-conceived." As a power manager for BNSF, I got to learn first hand the joy of trying to scrounge power for a spontaneously-created vehicle train at Albuquerque routed via Glorieta and 10,000 tons of York Canyon coal for Box, TX over Raton. As for over-generalized: Yes, generally speaking - well actually speaking: 3.5 percent grades are a severe hinderance to heavy traffic freight railroading. It's not just Raton; American railroads don't have grades that steep on their main lines.
So what's your point? Given the reality of today's freight railroading, what place is there for the Raton Pass line that isn't applicable anywhere else?
mudchicken ... We probably crossed paths at Wootton/Morley/Gallinas/Starkville a few times, esp if you were with the test car EMD2, EMD4 and the two plain jane gray SBD SD-50's without their decals / paint applied. (Speaking of "blast", hopefully you missed Ralph declaring war on the beavers )
... We probably crossed paths at Wootton/Morley/Gallinas/Starkville a few times, esp if you were with the test car EMD2, EMD4 and the two plain jane gray SBD SD-50's without their decals / paint applied.
EMD demo SD60's EMD2 and 4 were there a few months before our first radial truck test on Sant Fe GP50 3810 and test car/braking units in 11/84. It was absolutely the best testing ground for a steering truck with all the 10 degree curves and the grade to assist the braking units in holding the locomotive at full TE. In total, I think I spent a total of about 5 months on various tests running up and down the Trinidad side of the hill in the mid-1980's. Had many great dinners at a Mexican restaurant near the station in Trinidad but the name escapes me now.
I did miss hearing about Ralph and the beavers.
Dave
Was SFe's northern line 3-4 hours faster than the southern?
In 1957 the Super Chief was scheduled 3 minutes faster Newton to Dalies (via La Junta) than the San Francisco Chief via Amarillo. The Chief and El Cap via La Junta were a few minutes slower.
Where do people get the idea Super C ran via Raton? Did it ever even detour that way?
(The last page of a 9/72 timetable shows it running via Belen, as it no doubt always did
1972-09-11AT&SF_Albuquerque17-SheldonPerry.pdf (wx4.org)
Last page of a 1971 timetable shows it running via Wellington
1971-05-16ATSF_Middle18-Moore.pdf (wx4.org)
Timetables didn't show the freight schedules before that.
Raton pass in the early 90s was still viable enough for the Santa Fe that when they were doing work in Abo Canyon trains 199 198 and the eastbound counterparts were rerouted over Raton along with QNYLA. Those were so overpowered in the HP/ton normally getting 5 to 6 per ton that the grade wasn't that big of a hindrance. That and being all tofc with no double stacked containers.
Some years ago, I remember watching a video about the York Canyon coal train. It took three locomotives up front and three more as pushers to get the train over Raton in two cuts. The train was then re-assembled and headed east behind two locomotives. Quite different from priority TOFC/COFC trains.
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