NeO6874Or, the affected parties (or their governing body*) just need to get on-board with the carrier's EDI (Electronic Data Interchange) network, which is how large corporations (e.g. Ford or Intel or CSX or BNSF or whoever) generally go about their day-to-day business in the first place.
With great respect: I can't imagine any carrier granting open access to its internal EDI (harmonized or not) to any outside agency. In my further opinion it would be extremely unwise for any government entity to attempt to mandate such access.
As I envision the system, a special version of certain forms of data needs to be developed by the railroads, and then presented to a particular port or interface, appropriately dereferenced from the 'main' EDI or network instantiations the railroad uses. (This would be appropriately 'hardened' against potential DDoS attacks and other common forms of exploit, btw.) I would recommend the inclusion of common-sense forms of obfuscation in addition to encryption of the datastreams and their content. Only the 'conditioned' information would pass out of the possession and control of the railroad(s) or associated entities (such as those providing detailed PIH remediation information for particular loads, configuration of access controls or alarms on the cars, etc.)
I leave open the question of whether the railroad itself has a distinctive use for the modified information stream, and would 'help' defray some of the development and instantiation cost through its own purchases and utilization.
Wizlish Purely and simply, first responders need to know WHAT and WHERE a hazard is, particularly if it involves PPE or special protocols to handle. I find it literally incredible that a good, coherent, usable system to provide that information does not exist, particularly when it seems so simple to design, roll out, instantiate, and maintain it. I would tentatively agree with the idea that a notification system purely for oil-train movement is the wrong answer -- that would more than smack of demonizing that class of traffic when there are far more significant public dangers (derailment or otherwise) present in many trains every day. But the right response is not to deprecate the idea of providing timely information on rail movements and consists to first responders!
Purely and simply, first responders need to know WHAT and WHERE a hazard is, particularly if it involves PPE or special protocols to handle. I find it literally incredible that a good, coherent, usable system to provide that information does not exist, particularly when it seems so simple to design, roll out, instantiate, and maintain it.
I would tentatively agree with the idea that a notification system purely for oil-train movement is the wrong answer -- that would more than smack of demonizing that class of traffic when there are far more significant public dangers (derailment or otherwise) present in many trains every day. But the right response is not to deprecate the idea of providing timely information on rail movements and consists to first responders!
When the first responders arrive on the scene, they do have all that information available at the scene. The train crew has a list of cars, what they are loaded with, where they are in the train and what actions to take for each specific hazardous material. Including PPE.
Our rules require us to provide that information to them. If we have an extra copy of the train list and emergency response info, and we are supposed to have an extra copy any time hazmat is in a train, we can give them that extra copy. If for some reason there is only one list available, we are to share the information but retain the list until a company officer arrives to take charge.
Jeff
jeffhergertWhen the first responders arrive on the scene, they do have all that information available at the scene. The train crew has a list of cars, what they are loaded with, where they are in the train and what actions to take for each specific hazardous material. Including PPE.
And if the train crew is dead or incapacitated, or the documentation has been lost or inaccessible in the cab of a wrecked locomotive? (Or you have something like the Tom Harding/Farnham Follies going on...) Of course there is no problem finding the crewmember with the train list as soon as the response arrives, or reading it if it is dark or raining...
I would rate PPE requirements provided only at the time of arrival at the site somewhere in the general category of runway behind you, altitude above you, and fuel available at the FBO. Of course, if every first responder carries a full set of available PPE and chemicals for every conceivable hazardous material, this isn't as much of an issue.
Out of curiosity, does the material you carry discuss binary hazards and other related issues (chemical recombinations or reactions between different materials carried in the consist)?
Indeed - and every car is placarded. If it's a manifest freight, it could happen that said placard is rendered unusable. If it's a unit train (as oil trains generally are), unless all ~100 cars are in a heap, burning, it won't be hard to figure out what's being carried.
Pretty much every fire apparatus has a copy of the ERG on board, which provides the same basic information the train crew has. If not, dispatch usually has access.
And in today's digital age, the railroad has essentially the same information as the crew has, so even if the info is not available from the crew for whatever reason, it can be had in reasonable time.
PPE for firefighters is going to fall into one of two categories: Standard structural PPE (turnouts, bunker gear, etc), and hazmat gear (for chemical incidents - the encapsulation suits will melt with heat). If it's burning, it's regular gear, probably self-contained breathing apparatus, and lots of water. Foam if you got it.
Notification of fire departments, whether real-time or simply advance warning, has to factor in the fact that many are unstaffed volunteer agencies. Of the departments in my county, two have full time staff. For the rest, even if there was real time information available, it's entirely possible that no one might visit the station for several days.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
As Larry says, the emergency response teams have copies of the Emergency Response Guide with them, and every bill of lading must contain the proper information as to the nature of every hazardous material in the shipment--which will enable the ERT to quickly determine the hazard and how to handle it, including how close it may be approached from any wind direction.
When I was shipping hazardous materials (by truck, as we had no rail service) I not only had the bill of lading completed, I also had a copy of the ERG for each different hazard with the bill, so the truck driver could give the information directly to whoever responded if there were an accident. I did the same on the rare occasions when I made such a shipment by air. Granted, it is a little over eight years since I retired, but I doubt that these basic requirements have changed--unless they are now stricter than they were.
I doubt that any sensible person would demand that emergency response people be on hand whenever it is reported that a hazmat shipment will be passing through a locality, considering the number of such movements and the frequency of troublesome events.
Johnny
Oh yes--as to placards, every surface vehicle is to have a placard on each side and each end.
Deggesty...the frequency of troublesome events.
Methinks that should read "the infrequency of troublesome events."
It's a classic case of "the boy who cried wolf." If we got dispatched every time hazmat rolled through town, eventually the response would be zero firefighters...
Yes, Larry, I thought of writing "infrequency" because of the small number of such events in comparison with the total number of shipments, but settled on "frequency." It was a somewhat nebulous decision. Sad to say, the general public has no idea as to how many shipments travel safely; they hear only of the tragedies.
I like your reference to the fable concerning the keeper of the sheep.
With all the hysteria about oil trains, several things are overlooked. No one in the US has been killed or seriously injured in an oil train derailment. The oil train incident everyone points to involved a parked train that was improperly secured in Canada.
This does not minimize the tragedy that Lac Megantic was. The NIMBY BANANAS don't want anything moved except what specifically benefits them and they don't want to see it happen - they want the gasoline for their vehicles (at a low price), they want the electricity for their EV's, they want it all; but have it take place 'somewhere else'.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Wizlish Could you be more specific on what you mean by this sentence? I would have to paraphrase it for it to make sense, and we decided months ago that paraphrasing intent is not wise in these threads.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding Wizlish Could you be more specific on what you mean by this sentence? I would have to paraphrase it for it to make sense, and we decided months ago that paraphrasing intent is not wise in these threads. This appears to mean that you were on the forum months ago, yet it shows you joined the forum in October 2014. What did your forum name used to be?
This appears to mean that you were on the forum months ago, yet it shows you joined the forum in October 2014. What did your forum name used to be?
[/quote]
Bucky?
Duckin' and runnin'.
Norm
NeO6874Or, the affected parties (or their governing body*) just need to get on-board with the carrier's EDI (Electronic Data Interchange) network, which is how large corporations (e.g. Ford or Intel or CSX or BNSF or whoever) generally go about their day-to-day business in the first place. In simple terms, it's the big-business equivalent of us using mail-order / Amazon (and subsequent CC / check payment to the vendor).
The industry would probably just let Railinc handle it. Pretty much all the needed info goes through them, anyway.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Concerning "wolf," there was one time in my eight years of handling Hazmat when I asked for assistance. The driver bringing an incoming shipment stopped at the first dock he came to to ask where he was to unload, and he told me he had a brown liquid dripping from the van. I knew immediately that it was a mildly corrosive mixture and that it did not impose an immediately serious hazard.
On my way to the dock where I would unload the 18 wheeler, I called Security and said I needed an ERT on that dock; I do not remember, but I may have told what I knew. Before I got to the pallet with the leak, which was one of the first two that had been loaded, every ERT in the plant was on the dock, enjoying watching me run the forklift. They knew I was serious in my need, and did not hesitate to come. I do not know what they were doing before security called them, but they came, ready to do what was necessary. Whoever had loaded those pallets had speared two one-gallon bottles of the liquid. Once the van was emptied, our men saw to it that it was rinsed before it left our property.
In the same way, there is no need to call for help with a hazmat movement by rail until there is actually need for such help. Then, help should spring into action.
Try as hard as you can to perfectly schedule a freight train. The trains will run when everything is ready for them to run. The crews have to wait their turn to move the trains. The dispatchers need the trains to have a safe stopping distance. They need to stop for fuel and to change crews.
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
The railroad management needs to have crews employed to check the tracks regularly and to maintain the ties and ballast. If the track is in excellent shape that greatly reduces the possiblity of a derailment.
Wizlish NeO6874 Or, the affected parties (or their governing body*) just need to get on-board with the carrier's EDI (Electronic Data Interchange) network, which is how large corporations (e.g. Ford or Intel or CSX or BNSF or whoever) generally go about their day-to-day business in the first place. With great respect: I can't imagine any carrier granting open access to its internal EDI (harmonized or not) to any outside agency. In my further opinion it would be extremely unwise for any government entity to attempt to mandate such access. (more stuff)
NeO6874 Or, the affected parties (or their governing body*) just need to get on-board with the carrier's EDI (Electronic Data Interchange) network, which is how large corporations (e.g. Ford or Intel or CSX or BNSF or whoever) generally go about their day-to-day business in the first place.
(more stuff)
I think you're misunderstanding me.
They (the authorities) are only connected to the EDI system at the edge, as customers (sometimes "Partners", depends on the exact industry, but they're more or less interchangeable for our discussion here) to the railroad, and are only sent relevant documents - they don't get to see "everything". Connectivity options, file security, and delivery SLA agreements all come into play, but I'm glossing over a lot of this in effort to keep this as simple as possible (dayjob is working for a global VAN / EDI vendor, and dealing with a lot of these considerations you brought up).
Let's use CSX as an example, they're hauling materials for Ford & Chevy and moving containers for Maersk & JB Hunt and whatever else for other customers. Now, I'm just calling everything "orders" and "invoices" for the sake of simplicity ... there are easily hundreds of different document types that are transmitted, not to mention several different standards for the data format.
So, the work would be at CSX's (or their EDI Vendor's) end to say "if a train is going through Anywhere USA, AND the bill of lading for a car mentions hazmat, then generate order to Anywhere USA Police Dispatch informing them of car numbers, hazmat code, and whatever else".
oltmannd NeO6874 Or, the affected parties (or their governing body*) just need to get on-board with the carrier's EDI (Electronic Data Interchange) network, which is how large corporations (e.g. Ford or Intel or CSX or BNSF or whoever) generally go about their day-to-day business in the first place. In simple terms, it's the big-business equivalent of us using mail-order / Amazon (and subsequent CC / check payment to the vendor). The industry would probably just let Railinc handle it. Pretty much all the needed info goes through them, anyway.
NeO6874 Or, the affected parties (or their governing body*) just need to get on-board with the carrier's EDI (Electronic Data Interchange) network, which is how large corporations (e.g. Ford or Intel or CSX or BNSF or whoever) generally go about their day-to-day business in the first place. In simple terms, it's the big-business equivalent of us using mail-order / Amazon (and subsequent CC / check payment to the vendor).
Sounds like that's the overall VAN platform ... which amuonts to the same thing, but can be more efficient for everyone, since instead of individual connections between CSX and (other parties), CSX has one connection to Railink, and the other parties all connect to Railink, and then Railink handles routing/connectivity/translation/etc.
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
NeO6874 They (the authorities) are only connected to the EDI system at the edge, as customers (sometimes "Partners", depends on the exact industry, but they're more or less interchangeable for our discussion here) to the railroad, and are only sent relevant documents - they don't get to see "everything". Connectivity options, file security, and delivery SLA agreements all come into play, but I'm glossing over a lot of this in effort to keep this as simple as possible (dayjob is working for a global VAN / EDI vendor, and dealing with a lot of these considerations you brought up).
Every time this has com up in real life actual first responders have backed away from this type of system because it is actually more cumbersome and less effective than the existing system.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Murphy SidingThis appears to mean that you were on the forum months ago, yet it shows you joined the forum in October 2014. What did your forum name used to be?
Wizlish, prior to about 2006. (YMMV on the precise date; I suspect the old posts are still 'there' in the archives somewhere...)
dehusman NeO6874 They (the authorities) are only connected to the EDI system at the edge, as customers (sometimes "Partners", depends on the exact industry, but they're more or less interchangeable for our discussion here) to the railroad, and are only sent relevant documents - they don't get to see "everything". Connectivity options, file security, and delivery SLA agreements all come into play, but I'm glossing over a lot of this in effort to keep this as simple as possible (dayjob is working for a global VAN / EDI vendor, and dealing with a lot of these considerations you brought up). It all sounds so simple. A route carries 40 trains a day, 30 of which are trains that carry loaded hazmat cars or empty hazmat residue cars. The trains on that route travel through approximately 500 individual fire and police department jurisdictions. That is 15,000 consists a day.
Since a trains do work on line the cars on the trains will change. Lets say 10 trains a day have work events so in addition to the 30 regular consists, each jurisdiction will recieve 10 updated consists (up to 20,000 consists per day)...
Since trains can be late, the jurisdictions will have to maintain several days of consists just to be sure they have retained the correct trains.
So each jurisdiction will have lets say 4 days of consists, 30 regular consists per day plus 10 updated consists per day, that's 160 consists on file.
How will the jurisdiction know when to get rid of a consist, know that the train has passed? It is possible that if there is a weather issue of major incident trains can be delayed up to a week.
If there is an event, how easy will it be for the jurisdiction to wade through 150-160 consists to find the one that they want?
How much of a problem will it be for 500 jurisdictions to maintain this info year after year after year when in reality they may not actually use it but once every 50-100 years?
It would be way easier to contact Chemtrec or the railroad and give them a car number.
At the risk of appearing to commence equine flagellation -- this is precisely why any 'notification' system can't be cumbersome and ineffective...
I'm going to carry this requirement to its logical extreme. What happens when the jurisdiction is Pasadena or Channelview TX and the local firefighters would be receiving notifications by the hundreds each day?
dehusman NeO6874 They (the authorities) are only connected to the EDI system at the edge, as customers (sometimes "Partners", depends on the exact industry, but they're more or less interchangeable for our discussion here) to the railroad, and are only sent relevant documents - they don't get to see "everything". Connectivity options, file security, and delivery SLA agreements all come into play, but I'm glossing over a lot of this in effort to keep this as simple as possible (dayjob is working for a global VAN / EDI vendor, and dealing with a lot of these considerations you brought up). It all sounds so simple. (stuff )
After you strip away all the mess and red tape, it really is.
It's just a 1:1 scale model of car-cards / waybills / switchlists...
Operator has the main list of trains heading out of Cleveland, west to Chicago, with a stop in Toledo.
Tie it into the car detectors that're already on the railroads for updates on the car locations, so "actual car position" takes precedence over "scheduled time" -- so if a knuckle breaks at 10:30 in Rocky River (Scheduled arrival - 10:45 in Bay Village), Rocky River (and Bay Village) will both know the train hasn't left RR jurisdiction because it hasn't passed the detector at the border of the two cities.
CSSHEGEWISCH I'm going to carry this requirement to its logical extreme. What happens when the jurisdiction is Pasadena or Channelview TX and the local firefighters would be receiving notifications by the hundreds each day?
They're only getting the "alert" isofar as it's available to be read (not that is HAS to be read).
So in the event that it has to be read (e.g. train derails )
Remember guys, the whole system is essentially running in the background, and isn't necessarily requiring a human to devote their entire job to keeping up with it.
Not really, though; just press Delete, and wait for a true call for help.
So in the event that it has to be read (e.g. train derails ) Local Police / Fire Dispatch is informed Dispatch looks up NS123
How do they know its NS123?
Somebody calls 911 and says that a train has derailed near 38th and Main Sts.
How does the police or fire know that is the NS 123?
How do they know which railroad it is?
dehusman So in the event that it has to be read (e.g. train derails ) Local Police / Fire Dispatch is informed Dispatch looks up NS123 How do they know its NS123?
Ideally, the system will be tracking all trains within jurisdiction, and can relay any information the railroad knows (so it's really secondary that they 'know' the railroad's identifier for the train is NS123). Because it's integrated with GIS, the position of each train relative to the street map or other identifiers is also known (or can be obtained in a common-sense way very quickly). If the railroad has a way of knowing the train has stopped in emergency, or has derailed cars, etc., that will show in the train's status.
This is similar in many ways to the quandary over how to report crossing problems (which was partially addressed by providing stickers with the toll-free number and the properly-formatted crossing ID and address information on them). There probably aren't 100% solutions (for example, you get someone who doesn't speak clearly or understand railroads talking to an ordinary 911 operator who then relays the information to responders through ordinary police/fire channels for 911 response)
Somebody calls 911 and says that a train has derailed near 38th and Main Sts. How does the police or fire know [what train it is]? How do they know which railroad it is?
Wizlish Ideally, the system will be tracking all trains within jurisdiction, and can relay any information the railroad knows (so it's really secondary that they 'know' the railroad's identifier for the train is NS123).
Because it's integrated with GIS, the position of each train relative to the street map or other identifiers is also known (or can be obtained in a common-sense way very quickly).
If the railroad has a way of knowing the train has stopped in emergency, or has derailed cars, etc., that will show in the train's status.
This is similar in many ways to the quandary over how to report crossing problems (which was partially addressed by providing stickers with the toll-free number and the properly-formatted crossing ID and address information on them).
A crossing is a fixed object with a defined owner. Its always in one place and always has the same owner. Not so much with trains. Different trains from different owners can operate on the same track and the information for each train is proprietary to each railroad. There could be 5 railroads operating over 38th & Main on the same track and none of the railroads would know what is in any of the cars on any of the other railroad's trains, even the railroad that owns the track.
And truth to tell, they are far less concerned with 'what railroad it is' than with what the train is carrying.
dehusman Not all engines are equipped with GPS and very few cars are currently equipped. Of the equipment equipped, not all of it is working. Railroads do not share GPS positioning information between them. The UP cannot read any GPS information from an NS engine on the UP. The Railroads do not share position information on trains between them. It at 38th and Main, the NS was running next to the CSXT, the NS would know nothing about the CSXT trains and the CSXT would know nothing about the NS trains.
GPS equipped locomotives report to their owners. If they are on their owner's property or not. CSX locomotives on UP report their data to CSX, not UP. GPS reports on a 'batch' basis in roughly hour increments, not minute by minute or second by second.
Cars that are GPS equipped report to their owners, who in most cases are car leasing companies. At present, users of GPS for both locomotive and cars are using it for equipment utilization purposes - finding equipment that is sitting and determining why and what will be required to get the equipment moving and doing the job it was purchased to be doing.
"Drowning in data" is the thought that comes to mind. Before responding to the emergency I can't see the fire department first spending precious minutes sorting through piles of paper, or going on the computer to figure out which specific train and printing off the entire consist information. Most of the immediately needed information will be available at the scene, either by placards on any hazardous cars or hopefully from the crew's consist list. The railroad will already know what train(s) is involved so the important thing is that lines of communication are established quickly between the field and the railroad. I expect the fire departments have emergency numbers to call for that purpose and they can be on a cell phone as they head to the scene.
The KISS principle is usually the most effective.
cx500 "Drowning in data" is the thought that comes to mind. Before responding to the emergency I can't see the fire department first spending precious minutes sorting through piles of paper, or going on the computer to figure out which specific train and printing off the entire consist information.
"Drowning in data" is the thought that comes to mind. Before responding to the emergency I can't see the fire department first spending precious minutes sorting through piles of paper, or going on the computer to figure out which specific train and printing off the entire consist information.
And that was the point I was going to eventually get to in my questions. First reports are notoriously confused and incomplete. (Reading some of the transcripts of the Lac Megantic accident, some of the initial reports were an LPG tank went off) The bottom line is you don't know what you have until somebody actually looks at it. Then they will either get the required information from the crew on the scene, will look it up in their own reponse manuals or will call "somebody" to give them the information.
Once they get to the "call somebody" option it really doesn't matter whether its Chemtrec/the railroad 1000 miles away or their dispatch office 5 miles away. Actually calling Chemtrec or the railroad is better than calling their own dispatch office. The local forces might have to deal with a railroad emergency once every couple decades while Chemtrec and the railroad will have dealt with railroad emergencies many more times and will have access to more assistance than the police/fire dispatcher would ever have access to.
I feel like the overall thought here, is that the technology and beauracracy shopuld be so far advanced that a fireman pulling up to a derailment should be able to pull up all hazmat info instantly on his cell phone? Good luck on that. I'd alos like the fieman to have that samecapability in reference to the trucks driving down the highway and the planes flying overhead.
The FAA regulations on hazmat are quite strict. Not a lot to worry about there.
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