A Sneaker

[phbrown]

Re: Saluda. Mark Hemphill remarked that a cog railroad would have been laid in a striaght line from top to bottom, with the costs being clearing land and trees. That's actually quite close to what they did. While the line from Saluda down to Melrose roughly follows the shape of an L, there's a ravine in the middle of the straight line (the same ravine US 176 squiggles up the other side of). So arguably they did a pretty good job of minimizing construction costs as it was. Operating costs, now, that's another matter ....

[Anonymous]

4%?!? That's NOTHING!!!! Live on an island such as St. Thomas or St. John in the U.S.V.I. and you can have grades of 20% or more... course they have no TRAINS there..... but hell on autotransmission cars. Most people drive stick simply because autotransmissions burn out so fast

[Mark300]

Mookie,

My high school algebra teacher had a mantra......and would repeat it as he demonstrated how to think about gradient;

'Rise over Run."

(& keeping the units the same; feet to feet and so forth),,,For me it's been a big help down through the years.

Mark

[Modelcar]

...."4%, THAT'S NOTHING".....Tell that to the operations people that had to master running over Saluda and one may get a disagreement. Now 20% IS steep for a street or roadway. Was involved in testing years ago and we were on a 19% grade with a 25,000 gvw truck with an automatic...[experimental], and we stalled out not able to make it to the top....and controlling that rig getting it safely back down to where we could turn was not fun...

[Anonymous]

Thought you guys would like to see an example of an overseas rack and pinion.
This was a main line solution to get over a mountain divide in New Zealand. It was impressive to see up to four of these little locos taking a train up the grade. One of the added difficulties on this line was the high winds that were experienced. Nowadays a tunnel replaces it, but as you can see from this excellent website there are moves afoot to resurrect it as a tourist attraction.

http://www.rimutaka-incline-railway.org.nz/index.htm
l

[Modelcar]

...Is it just my site as I can't make the NZ site work re: Incline railway.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: ....I'm assuming they kept the train in one piece to decend the grade....
Pulling up the hill at 20 mph is impressive....

The train was kept in one piece for the descent, but the train did stop mostly at the top, the front part of the train was already leaning down the grade and I always thought to myself seeing it there what kept all of that weight from just rolling away. The train crew would inspect the brakes and make sure everything was ok before continuing down.

One time we "chased" the train up the mountain, going mostly parallel to the track on Pearson Falls Rd. It was hard to keep up with at times, it was actually going faster than us! We barely beat it into town. Then again, my grandmother was driving since I hadn't gotten my license yet. If it'd been me, I would have been there a long time before the train[;)]

[Anonymous]

Hi Modelcar,

The address is correct and the website is OK if you plug it in to Internet Explorer. However, my link above doesn't appear to work. Let's try again.

http://www.rimutaka-incline-railway.org.nz/index.html

OK now it works. Didn't hyperlink it.

Ian

[Modelcar]

BRF.....They probably balanced the train across the summit there in Saluda while doing the brake inspection...etc...Wouldn't be too difficult to hold under that situation. But I'm sure everyone had to know what they were doing and make sure they actually did get it strung across the top of the hill so it was mostly balanced. I'm sure everything had to be accomplished there to the book or trouble would start quick...!

[Anonymous]

It's pretty much all flat once you get into Saluda and out for those few miles to the west, or at least looks that way when you're driving on 176 and from the bridge. I'm sure they had it all figured out of course and had more weight of the train behind the crest than over, but it's still amazing just to think about.

[Modelcar]

....ianwoodmore.....Now it worked. Thanks. I'm trying to understand what I'm looking at in the matter of achieving adhesion...Does it work in the manner of 2 drive wheels horizonally positioned against the sides of the center rail with pressure and achieving proper adhesion to pull the train along the track without slipping....In other words, not using any rack and cog system....or did the sides of the center rail have a fine rack design and the driving wheels have the contacting cog against it...I'm guessing that's it as I now look closer.

[Modelcar]

...But looking west from up on the bridge [and down where the depot used to be], that too is down grade, albeit not as severe as the other side of the summit.

[Overmod]

Rimutaka was worked using the Fell system, which is NOT a cog system. It uses horizontal adhesion wheels, clamped against a center rail with very strong springs.

Incidentally, the 'rack' engines are completely separate from the normal locomotive cylinders/drivers, and usually ran at a different speed. Four of these engines, therefore, sounded more like eight. Someone commented that watching four or five of them climb the Spiral was a sight worth coming 12,000 miles to see.

Fell, btw, would be a MUCH better choice for an 'assisted' Saluda than anything with fixed cogs. Wear and alignment problems alone with American loads and weights would prove substantial... we won't get into the probable difficulties with 'cog braking'. Note that there's little practical limitation on the *number* of adhesion-wheel pairs; the solution would then entail the use of 'helper MATEs' equipped with multiple electric-motor Fell units, drawing their power from appropriately-modified mothers (which of course could be useful elsewhere on the system, or provided in substantial enough numbers). Only a small number of the MATEs would be needed for anticipated travel over this relatively short grade, and should be capable of sufficient TE to take relatively long cuts of cars...

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark300

Mookie,

My high school algebra teacher had a mantra......and would repeat it as he demonstrated how to think about gradient;

'Rise over Run."

(& keeping the units the same; feet to feet and so forth),,,For me it's been a big help down through the years.

Mark

Thanx Mark - I will try to remember that. Need to go somewhere so I can actually see this in use!

Mook

[natelord]

The Bernina Pass line of the Rhaetian Railways in southeastern Switzerland has some 7% grades, the rest are mainly 6%. Riding up the line from Tornino, Italy, to Pontresina, Switzerland, is quite an experience--especially when the passenger units--passenger car and loccomotive combined--are pulling log-laden flat cars. The line is all adhesion--not a cog in sight.