EMD and GE - Why so much anti GE feeling on the list? Light the blue touchpaper and retire

[M636C]

One of the problems Mt Newman had in 1975 was that they needed locomotives, but the builder wasn't responsive to complaints. If you say to MLW, for example, "you must do something about your engines, and stiffen up the camshaft mounts, and by the way can we have six more units by December?", they will give you the six units and think "the camshaft mounts can't be that bad or they wouldn't reorder".

What choice did Mt Newman have. To get the 3600 HP from EMD you had to buy a 20-645E3, about which everyone had heard bad stories. GE was pretty much an unknown quantity in Australia, with only a few Cooper-Bessemer engined units all dating from the early 1950s. I asked Max Ephraim from EMD if we could drop his new 645F into an Alco, and he was not keen on the idea, not the least having to tie it to a GE alternator. If we bought an AR16 as well, it would cost a lot more. And after all that we'd have an Alco with the mechanics of an SD50 (although at the time we thought that would be an improvement). Again, Hamersley took the risk and bought five SD50s (In fact short SD50S units), but they weren't much better, if at all than the Alcos, and they all migrated to Utah and were painted Red and Grey. (They were built in Australia, so it was their first visit to the USA). (I must visit them for old time's sake, and see how Soldier Summit compares to the Chichester Range)

Now, GE is king, and Dash9-44CWs are arriving all the time, so often that we don't know if there is a new order or if someone doubled up on the listing. But the road numbers just climb higher and higher.

But as Ed said, if we hadn't done anything, MLW would have kept sending us the same stuff. If we'd been really patient, MLW might have stayed in business, and we might be buying "Second Century" units. The GEs seem resistant to the engine room fires that the 636s tended to have from time to time, which left lasting marks on the paintwork (so you can tell they aren't happening) and the occasional unit that came in dead covered in its own oil after failing a turbocharger bearing seal doesn't seem to happen any more. It is all much more orderly, and probably cheaper to run, and the motive power superintendent can sleep at night without having to wake and plan a strategy to get the dead units off the main at 0300.

I think I'd buy GE now, just as I tried to in 1975, unless EMD could show that their units were more reliable and cheaper to run. They obviously convinced UP!

Peter

[edblysard]

Well, not quite true.
Toyota has assembly plants here, but not manufactoring plants. The sheet metal, seats, tires, engine block, windshield, almost every single piece on all of their vehicels are made over seas or in Mexico, shipped here, and then assembled. Pop the hood on your Iroc, and take a hard look, almost every metal casting in made in Mexico, and just about every plastic fitting is made in China or Taiwan.
Went looking at Harleys a few weeks ago with a buddy.
Guess what, just about every part on the Great American Motorcycle is made everywhere but in America.
The thing was a piece of junk.
Bud ended up buying a Honda 1800.
Built better, finished better, and at least they were up front about where it was made.
Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by lrcrocker

One point that all are missing is that EMD is not made in America, GE is made in Erie Pennsylvania, Let's keep some employment in this country and American Railroads that buy equipment that is not made in the U.S.A should look to non-american frieght shippers. Don't forget even Toyota is made in the U.S.A. but Lionel Trains is not.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lrcrocker

One point that all are missing is that EMD is not made in America, GE is made in Erie Pennsylvania, Let's keep some employment in this country and American Railroads that buy equipment that is not made in the U.S.A should look to non-american frieght shippers. Don't forget even Toyota is made in the U.S.A. but Lionel Trains is not.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lrcrocker

One point that all are missing is that EMD is not made in America, GE is made in Erie Pennsylvania, Let's keep some employment in this country and American Railroads that buy equipment that is not made in the U.S.A should look to non-american frieght shippers. Don't forget even Toyota is made in the U.S.A. but Lionel Trains is not.

I said it once and I'll say it again, GE is French owned! Where do the prfits go?

[Anonymous]

GE is not French owned. I am sure that there are french investors in GE. Because it one of the best manged and profitable companies in the world.

But i question you saying it "French" owned because it sounds like a smear tactic given are very "strained" relation with the French government at this time.

[Anonymous]

GE is not French owned. I am sure that there are french investors in GE. Because it one of the best manged and profitable companies in the world.

But I question you saying it "French" owned because it sounds like a smear tactic given are very "strained" relation with the French government at this time. Remember this company has contributed mightly to the advancement of railroad technology and founded by that great American Hero, Thomas Alva Edison.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Colin

GE is not French owned. I am sure that there are french investors in GE. Because it one of the best manged and profitable companies in the world.

But i question you saying it "French" owned because it sounds like a smear tactic given are very "strained" relation with the French government at this time.

Sorry to burst your bubble but GE and RCA are both owned by Thomson Electric, and
Thomson Electric is a French owned company!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Colin

GE is not French owned. I am sure that there are french investors in GE. Because it one of the best manged and profitable companies in the world.

But I question you saying it "French" owned because it sounds like a smear tactic given are very "strained" relation with the French government at this time. Remember this company has contributed mightly to the advancement of railroad technology and founded by that great American Hero, Thomas Alva Edison.

Back that Train up, Mister

How did GE Found Thomas Edison?

And if your Implying about the lightbulb, GE helped produe the light bulb, but the idea was stolen, so to say, by a man named Carl or George or whatever Westinghouse.

Ge and Westinghouse were among the first producers of the Light bulb.

Ge still produces light bulbs today

Westinghouse Still produces lightbulbs today..

So i'm not sure how GE founded Thomas Edison, because if Ge hadn't.. Westinghouse would have been the sole make of lightbulbs..

I agree that Ge has been the inventor of many things;
It invented the Fluorescent light in 1936, and I eblieve they had a hand in inventing the Metal-arc lamo, the first HIDF lamps available lit the streets of Boston.

But how Did GE found Thomas Edison?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by railwayray

QUOTE: Originally posted by Colin

GE is not French owned. I am sure that there are french investors in GE. Because it one of the best manged and profitable companies in the world.

But i question you saying it "French" owned because it sounds like a smear tactic given are very "strained" relation with the French government at this time.

Sorry to burst your bubble but GE and RCA are both owned by Thomson Electric, and
Thomson Electric is a French owned company!

Thompson Electric Inc is an Ohio electrical contractor who has done work for General Electric. They do not own GE nor are they French.

[oltmannd]

GE is NOT owned by Thomson. Thomson manufactures TVs and other consumer electronics for GE who sells them with the GE and RCA brands. GE is an American company , headquartered in Stamford Connecticut, with world-wide business.

This is similar to how the Ford Festiva and Aspire were manufactured by Kia of Korea and sold by Ford or the Chevy Tracker was made for GM by Suzuki.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

GE is NOT owned by Thomson. Thomson manufactures TVs and other consumer electronics for GE who sells them with the GE and RCA brands. GE is an American company , headquartered in Stamford Connecticut, with world-wide business.

This is similar to how the Ford Festiva and Aspire were manufactured by Kia of Korea and sold by Ford or the Chevy Tracker was made for GM by Suzuki.

Well then I was missinformed by a newspaper article I read about eight years ago that Thomson
Electric was baught by the French and two years later that same paper said Thomson Electeic baught GE and RCA and cosolidated them into one company but kept the respective names.
I Stand corrected, and apologize. Thank you for the info, and I'm not out to smeer anyone I
love everybody, I don't love some of the things we do but I have to be forgiving.
railwayray
Sagle Idaho

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by railwayray

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

GE is NOT owned by Thomson. Thomson manufactures TVs and other consumer electronics for GE who sells them with the GE and RCA brands. GE is an American company , headquartered in Stamford Connecticut, with world-wide business.

This is similar to how the Ford Festiva and Aspire were manufactured by Kia of Korea and sold by Ford or the Chevy Tracker was made for GM by Suzuki.

Well then I was missinformed by a newspaper article I read about eight years ago that Thomson
Electric was baught by the French and two years later that same paper said Thomson Electeic baught GE and RCA and cosolidated them into one company but kept the respective names.
I Stand corrected, and apologize. Thank you for the info, and I'm not out to smeer anyone I
love everybody, I don't love some of the things we do but I have to be forgiving.
railwayray
Sagle Idaho

No your right- If you buy a GE DVD player- It sais GE Thomson, so does their website.

If you buy an RCA Walkman, it Says RCA Thompson, So does my Boom Box.

If you buy a Really High end stereo, it will Say GE RCA thomson,

Ge is the father compny that owns RCA, And Thomson is the multimedia Division of both of those companies.

[Anonymous]

Boy, this discussion has sure gone off on a tangent. The good news is an EMD is still worth 3 GEs in the global marketplace...LOL....

And I can back that UP!!

LC

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

Boy, this discussion has sure gone off on a tangent. The good news is an EMD is still worth 3 GEs in the global marketplace...LOL....

And I can back that UP!!

LC

Hey Limitedclear, thanks for pulling the thread back on track [:)]

Why don't GE get savvy and emulate EMD designs were possible? Seems to happen in the auto industry - although I realise that is a different ball game altogether..

Kozzie

[Anonymous]

GE Is JUNK I'll take an EMD anyday

THANK YOU VERY MUCH

DOGGY

[Anonymous]

2 responses: 1: GE vs. EMD and 2: Wabash vs. Toyota
I ,personally, have leaned towards GE based on several factors. The first encounter I had with GE was with their turbine engines that I worked on and flew with in the Blackhawk helo. Second would be with railfanning and not only the look, but the sound of a Dash-9. Third would be the vision of Jack Welsch which to me is just awesome.
As for the latter, you have to be ignorant or misinformed these days to think that if you buy an 'Amercan' car that it is actually built in America and that the price paid stays or (more so- comes back) to 'us'. This is a train forum and I don't want to turn it into something else but I will defend the truth. Toyota pumps millions into our economy- very little of which goes back to the 'homeland'. From research and developement at CALTY and Detroit to manufacturing plants all over the East, Midwest, Texas, Cali, Toronto to the thousands of jobs and suppliers these create and the quality produced by American workers to place Toyota at #2 really says something. I worked for GM before I came to Toyo and I couldn't believe the difference in quality. Though GM has tried to catch-up and has made great strides they still lack in many areas.
Having said that- if EMD is anything like it's car company then I'll take a GE any day!

[tree68]

Only slightly off-topic:

I'm fond of saying that the reason that Ford is the best selling American truck is because you have to replace them more often....

Don't know if that applies to GE locomotives or not....

[Anonymous]

If you look on Thomson's web site under history you will find that they purchased the GE and RCA consumer electronics business from GE in 1988. Even though your DVD player has GE on it, it is not produced or marketed by General Electric. Unfortunately this is very common today, the brand name has no relation to the company actually producing the item.

[Anonymous]

Oh yeah, Well I like Kangoroos Better then Llamas

Her's other Topics for debate we can start

Brown Soil Vs. Red Soil
Tulips Vs. Pansies
Green Grass Vs. Forest Green Grass
Louis Vuitton Vs. Van Deutch
PCB's Vs. Magnesium
Keopectate Vs. Immodium

Anyhting Esle i'm forgetting?

[M636C]

Guys,

Look at the GE Transportation Website!

GE can sell you almost any EMD spare part, from a complete, new 645F engine ("better than the original" they say -although that would be necessary) to an export type D31 traction motor (a type proposed by EMD but never sold).

GE have faced up to the fact that their locomotives can't be rebuilt, owing to inherent design features in the FDL engine. The cast crankcase can't be rewelded like EMD (and Alco) crankcases, and must be replaced. Heavy users (like Hamersley Iron) have already replaced the crankcases in their Dash 9 units.

But many early SD40s are still around, and can be upgraded at relatively low cost, and GE will do that for you, because it's good business.

Looking at the GE Rail website, it struck me that if GM sold EMD to GE, not much would change at Erie. They might offer a 710 engine option in the Evolution series, for those who prefer it! They can already support that engine! It might be necessary to modify either the engine or the GE alternator for compatibility.

GE locomotives may never replace all the EMD locomotives, which have a longer potential operating life due to their design, mainly the engine. But if you know that most customers don't want to rebuild your locomotives, why build them to last that long?

Peter

[Anonymous]

Hi again good people,
I see many BNSF grain trains go by the house West bound there is an uphill grade
I do not no what percent but I notice if two dash eights or nines are on the point
there are always two of the same on the rear.
But if there are two SD 70m's or SD 70 MAC's on the front there is never any
helpers/pushers/DPU's on the tailend.
I also see that if there are two dash eight's or nine's plus an SD 40-2 or an OAKWAY
SD 60 on the front there is very seldom any power at the rear.
These trains all average 111 to 114 cars each.